Taboo Topics: Sex in Marriage – Meet Steve Graybill

Val and I met Steve during our time at the Simple Way and although we have spent a really short amount of live time together, he has quickly slotted into my folder of ‘Favourite people.’ Steve is someone who really strives to live out the Good News of Jesus practically and is an absolute inspiration. He jumped at the chance to share his story here and I hope that it will encourage and challenge many of you as it has me… On his second visit to the Simple Way we got to meet his lovely wife, Helene. Here is a glimpse into their story from Steve’s point of view:

My pastor has a saying: “Sometimes you have to let a dream die before God will resurrect it.”

I became a Christian shortly before my 19th birthday. Being somewhat of a high-school nerd I had still – had my virginity intact without much threat to it as I entered my college years. Truth be told when I became a Christian it was mainly because I wanted to date a girl who would not date non-Christians — we were best friends and there always seemed to be the ambiguous friends-more-than-friends paradigm/angst to our relationship. Of course, it was me who usually had the more romantic interest in her. Needless to say that romantic part of our relationship never worked out with any longevity, but being close Christian friends we made a covenant with each other that we would remain virgins until we found the person that we would spend the rest of our lives with. And we would wait until we married that person. She held up her end of the covenant while I did not. I was close, but I blew it. Of course she did get married in her early 20s, while I would wait until I was nearly 40 to have God give me the person that I will spend the rest of my life with.

Finding the woman that I would marry was the number one goal of my twenties. It was frustrating to see my male friends that were not holding to my standards of sexual morality fall in love, and get married. I would pray and ask God, “My friends are sleeping around and getting rewarded with wives. You know this is the desire of my heart, I am not sleeping around with anyone – Okay I did buy that Penthouse magazine, but geez I threw it away the same night I bought it and even went back to the store clerk and confessed that purchasing it was wrong—so when do I get rewarded with the woman that I get to spend the rest of my life with?”

By the time I was 29 I had had it! Most of my guy friends were married and my closest friend who I was living with had just gotten engaged to a possessive and jealous woman and I had to move out and our friendship eroded quickly. In the process of this, I began dating a non-Christian woman who I was up front with about waiting until marriage before having sex. She was fine with this agreement. But my anger and resentment toward God for not giving me what I deserved with my chaste lifestyle boiled over. I still remember the night that I had sex for the first time. I remember my girlfriend honoring me – three times she said “You don’t need to do this if you don’t want to. Are you sure?” I was sure! It was obvious that God was not for me and if God was not for me, than I was not for God.

I had heard stories about how if you have sex before marriage you will wake up feeling guilty the next day. This was not the case for me at all — I woke up feeling great, in control, and like a man! However, our relationship would begin to fall apart soon after this decision. Despite me being the initiator of sex, I gradually began to lose respect for her and I think that was the primary factor that led to me breaking off the relationship.
It would be two years before I would have another relationship at the age of 31. Christina* was a divorcee, 6 years older than me, a recovering alcoholic, but a Christian. We both agreed to wait until marriage to have sex. We also agreed that we would date for at least a year. While we never had intercourse, I would not exactly say that were not sexual. Regardless, we were dating for 11 months and I was beginning to think about buying a ring when she abruptly cut the relationship off. I was devastated—It was one of the most difficult times in my life — God had again shown that he is not for me.

Somehow, I took to heart one of the things that Christina told me when she broke up with me. If you want to understand me you should attend Al-anon — a twelve step program for families and friends of alcoholics. I don’t know why I would take the advice of the woman that just broke my heart but I did. Al-anon literally saved my life. It was in the Al-anon meetings that I began to realize how egocentric I was! For a solid year I was at Al-non twice a week and on bad weeks more! One of the biggest turning points was on Good Friday — I attended a meeting that I did not normally attend because it was just a really hard week for me. I remember gushing tears after that meeting and going up to Val, who was always knitting through the meetings, and flat out told her, “I am unlovable!” She immediately gave me a hug and reassured me saying, “You are totally lovable.” She meant those words and somewhere inside of me I knew she was right.

Things did not get instantly better after that night but that was the turning point. I began the process of realizing God is for me — a process that continues today. Somehow, it occurred to me that maybe I was not meant to get married. I decided for the first time in my life that I would trust God with this. If I was meant to be married God will make it happen in his timing, but I was really willing to accept that maybe I might be called to be single for the rest of my life. That latter scenario was a bit hard to swallow but I was okay with it. I was okay with it until gradually I started to really enjoy it.

I would not go on another date for more than six years! I had gotten used to single life and I was loving absolutely every minute of it! And then bam! I asked a woman that I barely knew if she would like to share gas money to a river festival. This was the time when gas was more than $4.00 a gallon, I was driving a gas-guzzling SUV and the festival was three hours away! We were both avid whitewater kayakers and would be able to hang out with our respective friends once at the festival. Helene was a “safe” option — I was sure of it!

God had other plans! It did not take long for us to realize on the ride up that there was a connection between us. We talked the entire way without either one dominating the conversation at any point. I remember being excited and confused at the same time. Needless to say, the river festival was the catalyst to us beginning a relationship. The big problem for me with this though, was that Helene was an atheist, had a promiscuous past and had also recently dated a good friend of mine. Again, I laid out the boundaries of no premarital sex and was shocked to find another non-Christian agreeable to this.

I was committed to loving Helene for who she was and not for what she believed. I was very hands off with respect to sharing my faith with her. I was open to sharing what I believed and why I believed what I believed and would recommend books that had influenced me — mainly so that she could better understand me. Regardless, God began to enter her life.

I happened to be what is commonly termed as “dechurched” at this time. Al-anon was still serving that purpose for me at the time, albeit more like 2 times a month. Helene heard about an Alpha group at National Community Church (NCC) in Washington, DC and started attending. Before long she was going to services and then this atheist girlfriend started asking her Christian boyfriend why he did not go to church — weird how God works sometimes! God uses atheists to get Christians into church — NCC is still our church home today!

It was not long before our relationship would fall into the trap of what I call the “Bill Clinton” school of sexual abstinence. Everything but intercourse is not waiting until marriage, but it would take us a while until we realized this. We dated a little less than two years before we got engaged and moved in together not long after. About 8 months before our wedding we went through a six week prepare group with our church for engaged couples. The group leaders are empty-nesters and they are awesome and they do a great job with the group! However, it would be the week after the group ended that I would pick up Lauren Winter’s book, ‘Real Sex,’ off of my wife’s bookshelf. I will not go into details about the book other than to say that it was the kick in the butt that I needed and that it is a great read for dating couples! I read the book in a few days and immediately gave it to Helene and said, “You need to read this and then we need to talk.”

We agreed that waiting until marriage to have sex is not about doing everything but intercourse. We were cheapening what it means to honor God with how we were approaching our physical relationship. We set up an appointment with the leader of the prepare group and he let us have it. At that meeting, we agreed that I would move into the spare bedroom starting that night. The only problem was the Helene’s mom was visiting and staying in the guest room at the time. So instead we agreed that I would sleep in our bedroom but on the floor on a camping pad until Helene’s mom’s visit was over. We very specifically agreed on body parts that were off limits to the other until we said “I do.” We also wrote confession letters to each other that we would burn together as well after reading them aloud to each other.

The decision to do these things was paramount for the health of our relationship. Showing love physically is easy. It can be a challenge to show love in other ways. Helene and I had to be creative. Notes around the house—putting them in sneaky places where one would least expect it was one thing we did. Reading Gary Chapman’s Five Love Languages and learning what those are for each other was also good for us. Moreover, the decision to step away from the physical aspect of our relationship was a step of faith in trusting that God knows what is best for us. Instead of seeing God as wanting to take away the fun things in our life–in this case sex—I decided to go all in (no pun intended) with trusting Him!

I will admit that it was not always easy but it was certainly amazing! I gained more respect for Helene. I gained more respect for myself. It was a catalyst for me to allow God deeper into my life. I also learned how to make Helene feel loved beyond the scope of just being sexual. And I felt redeemed — even all the mess that Helene and I created with keeping God at arms-length in our premarital sex life — God was able to redeem it once we invited Him in!

God had truly resurrected the dream that I had let die!

[*Name Changed to protect the innocent]

[To follow Steve’s musings in his regular blog ‘Steve G’s Eclectic World’, click here]

[to get a glimpse of part of Helene’s story, click here]

Continuing the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ conversation with Brett Fish and the beautiful Val [tbV]

the other day i posted an answer to a ‘how much sex in marriage?’ question that someone left after a ‘Singleness’ blog post and it got a whole lot of attention… realising that Sex in Marriage is a bit of a Taboo Topic that doesn’t get much attention, this felt like a healthy conversation to continue and so i had an online chat with Val about some of the stuff that came up in the comments section, so we could share it with you:

[Brett]: Hey Val, so when you read through the comments section on the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ blog, there were one or two things that got your back up. What would you say was the biggest of those that caused a reaction in you?

[Valerie]: Hi B. I think for the most part I appreciated the comments and agree that sex (or at least one or both partner’s interaction with it) can be an indicator of deeper issues in a marriage. I think my biggest issue was the implied suggestion that a lack or reduction of sex is indicative of marital problems. This comment in particular got me: “I think that if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow, however if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship, sex will illustrate that.”

[Brett]: Hm, interesting. I agree that if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship then sex is likely to be one of the places where that will be picked up. But I imagine you are more hesitant about the idea that if things are good in a relationship that sex will naturally follow? Is that right or what exactly is it about that statement [in the context of what you’ve said about problems with sex can be an indicator of deeper issues within a marriage] that you are taking issue to?

[Valerie]: I think what I heard some folk say is that a lack of sex is ALWAYS an indication of deeper issues and marital “rot”. I don’t like the idea that the natural result of happiness, comfortability and security is SEX! The implication being that sex is directly correlated with happiness, comfortability, security and general health of a marriage (the more you’re having the better it is; the less you’re having the more “in danger” you are.) My concern here is that this plays strongly into the dominant role sex plays in our culture, both within the church and without.

For many churches, the prime focus on relationships before marriage is sex. Don’t have it!

And the prime focus on relationships after marriage is sex. Have it!

So sex dominates our understandings of relationships, marriage, love, mutuality, fulfillment, sin and right living, and health – in the church. Meanwhile, outside the doors, sex dominates too. We have a culture driven by sex and sexuality – it pervades our music, movies, the market place, books, magazines, and is placed at the forefront of relationships.

I feel uncomfortable with this preoccupation with sex both in and out the church, both before and after marriage. is all

[Brett]: I hear you on that and definitely agree with you. The church could definitely improve their stance on sex in terms of the way it is presented and spoken about [and not spoken about]. Ultimately if the church is not speaking about sex, then we have to turn to the other voices on it which will primarily be the media and Hollywood, not great proponents of healthy attractive sexuality.

Karen seemed to have a similar opinion to you on sex not being at the centre of marriage, but also spoke of how it can be a good indicator if something is not healthy.

“Many counsellors and leaders in churches that I know, when helping couples will ask what the sexual relationship is like to get an indication of the health of the marriage. So although it is not the be all and end all and both parties should be happy with the amount of sex that happens in the marriage, we have to make sure our marriages are healthy, that our relationship with God is healthy so that we lack nothing, that He fulfills our needs and makes us happy, so that we don’t expect our spouses to make us happy.”

Is that something you would agree with? That a good marriage is not defined on how much or little sex you are having [other commenters mentioned things like emotional issues, abuse in the past and other aspects which can affect your sex] but that it might be a warning sign, a smoke alarm if you will, to the possibility of there being a fire needing to be taken care of?

[Valerie]: In short, I don’t think the strength or health of a marriage should be defined on how much or little sex is happening. But, if one or both parties are finding the amount of sex (shall we leave the quality to the side for now?) an issue, which I believe is where the first blog post started, then by all means that needs to be addressed. And I think the first blog did that well – in essence you flipped it on it’s head from “how much am I entitled to” to the deeper issues that could, and often do, underlie a question like that. The back-story if you like.

My main concern is that we don’t perpetuate the myth that sex is the pinnacle of a relationship. It’s what we tell Christian young people before they get married and create in essence a mythical “IT”, much like Hollywood does. When the newly-wed couple eventually gets down to it we have bogged them down with so much guilt, shame, expectations and assumptions along with an idealized vision of “IT” which, let’s be honest, has little to do with the actual messy, fun, awkward, emotional, vulnerable, experience of sex-in-real-life that it’s little wonder they get so easily entangled in the complexities of it.

And I’m worried that similar discussions of sex and it’s place in marriage do essentially the same: elevate sex to being the “IT” of marriage – the purpose, the indicator of health, the thing we should be striving for (more or better of), the reason why we do the things that make our spouse feel loved etc (ooh, and that last one especially, the “I’m buying you flowers because I love you, but secretly I’m really just earning brownie points and we both know it.”)

[Brett]: Yes, exactly. You’re talking about the ‘No sex til marriage’ whip that is held above Christian young people [which becomes completely guilt-inducing every time they mess up in any way sexually] and then at some stage they get married and are instantly meant to change to a “sex is allowed and great” mentality. That is such a confusing thing we do to people and it can take years to work through that one.

Sex in marriage IS great. But you know what is also great in marriage? Cuddling. And cooking a meal together. One of my favourite things [and I think yours] is to lie next to each other at the end of the day and just talk about life and ‘solve all the world’s problems’ [well, most of them]. Also playing board and card games together. Watching a series we both enjoy. And so on. I think this is a message that could be given out a lot more on this one – that sex is great alongside a lot of other things that are great.

[Valerie]: Totally. We follow up the “no sex outside marriage” whip with the “sex in marriage” whip (that’s another story!) that creates a lot of guilt about how much is being had, shame about what is and isn’t allowable now that the general veil has been lifted, expectations about what it’s going to be like. So phrases like “if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow” just add guilt on guilt and shame on shame and resentment and disappointment and even blame at its worst. Yes, it IS wonderful. It is messy and awkward and vulnerable. It is fun. But it is also one – yep, just ONE – of a myriad things that make my relationship good and fun and healthy and fulfilling and satisfying and comfortable and secure and and and. Let’s get a little perspective in here, yo!

We would LOVE to hear your thoughts and comments on our thoughts and comments and any follow-up questions you might have…

[to read the original blog post that started this all, click here]

How much sex in marriage? [part ‘you’]

little did i know when i responded to someone’s comment about how much sex should take place in marriage [ironically in the comments section on a blog i posted on ‘Singleness’] that this would get as much attention as it did…

…and not just people viewing it, but people talking about it and i appreciated some of the comments so much that i felt like they deserved their own blog and so i am simply copying and pasting as is, some of the responses the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ blog received, and hope to do a follow-up post myself sometime soon as this feels like something we are interested in knowing more about…

Joel had this to say:

I like the way you tackle these difficult questions, thanks Brett. As a newly married guy I can stand behind your sentiments about having the right focus in terms of getting away from ‘me-centered’ attitudes towards sex or anything else. When I think of petty arguments my wife and I have had they are usually because one of us is being very selfish, and lets be honest selfishness is not attractive and is not going to get you anywhere sex-wise.

Leanne shared this:

I enjoyed this response. I think I might have something to add. When one partner feels they are not getting enough sex, let’s say its the man as that is more common, he tends to see himself as sexually unfulfilled, a victim, and his wife as the problem. Perhaps he even sees her as selfish or manipulative. What I think is important to remember is that both partners in a marriage should ideally be sexually fulfilled . This means the wife too. Is she not losing out just as much as her husband even if she has no interest in sex? Should her husband not have compassion on her and be aware that she too is suffering and missing out on the joy of sexual fulfilment? In this kind of situation it is important that the husband realise that he is not the only one short changed and that his wife is not the problem, at least not of her own volition and certainly not in isolation. Sensitivity is needed to understand the problem, be it biological (lack of libido, depression, discomfort etc), psychological (poor self image, upbringing etc) or relational (resentment, not feeling safe or loved etc).

I think very few women with a healthy libido in a loving marriage would withhold sex. And by that I don’t mean to say that there is no place for sex when you’re not in the mood sometimes. That’s for another conversation. I’m not saying that a woman can’t be sitting with a strong libido and deliberately withholding sex from a loving, sensitive husband, just that it’s far from the default explanation.

The problem needs to be addressed with sensitivity by both partners, seeking to understand more than to be understood, with the humility to expect that there may be another perspective to one’s own. And that the problem is likely to be far deeper and broader than it first appears. Having a fulfilling sex life, even if it’s not what you thought it would be, is something worth fighting for but do fight for your partner on this issue, not against them and be prepared to adjust your expectations and to be very patient… these things absolutely cannot be rushed and the long-term goal is key.

Richard added his thoughts:

I think the most important thing here is not to focus on the sex.. Someone once said to me that sex is a good indicator of whether or not there is a problem in the relationship. I think that if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow, however if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship, sex will illustrate that.

The question to ask yourself is, what is wrong (other than the sex) and what can I (yes you, not the other person) do better in order to meet the other person’s needs, because if they are happier in the relationship, sex will usually follow. Unless you have married someone who has never been attracted to you, at one stage you were attracted to each other, so what has changed? Find out what the real issue is, fix that, and the sex will fix itself.

Unfortunately, we are all taught from an early age to look after ourselves first. that does not work in a marriage. If you look after your spouse first, they will in turn find it easier to look after you first, and then you will truly know what it is to love someone.. Then there will be no sex-issues.. I know it is hard work, and not as simple as it comes across, but the idea is a simple one, the practice is very hard.. But well worth it!

Karen had this to add:

Hi. Thanks Brett for your thoughts, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been married for 17 years, separated for 3, not willingly, my husband says God gives him free will and he is exercising that. But that’s a whole different topic. With regards sex in marriage, I always felt that it was not the be all and end all of a marriage and that marriage was made up of so many more facets than just sex, but what I can say, in my humble opinion based on walking the journey of discovery of a broken marriage, and that is that sex life in marriage is an indicator of how healthy the marriage is, if I had known that, we could have sought counselling long before the marriage broke, instead I was accepting of my circumstances and the husband God had given me in sickness and health, for richer and poorer, etc….and therefore I did not use this as an indicator that there were serious problems. Many counsellors and leaders in churches that I know, when helping couples will ask what the sexual relationship is like to get an indication of the health of the marriage. So although it is not the be all and end all and both parties should be happy with the amount of sex that happens in the marriage, we have to make sure our marriages are healthy, that our relationship with God is healthy so that we lack nothing, that He fulfills our needs and makes us happy, so that we don’t expect our spouses to make us happy. We should have a firm and solid relationship with God and from there the fruits of the spirit will flow not only to the world out there, but definitely to our spouses. We are to communicate as soon as possible to the problems we feel exist and not ignore them for years on end. A happy and healthy person, makes a happy and healthy spouse and with God as the centre, a happy and healthy marriage with the right amount of sex for both.

Sedrico jumped in with this experienced wisdom:

Brett, being married for almost ten years now has been a roller coaster….it’s never a plain sail experience. The minute a man sits down with himself the better. He needs to admit that sex get less. Yes man, that’s the truth! Men don’t talk about it. They want to either let their buddies know that its cooking in the bedroom. Maturity in a marriage relationship is noticing the how, when and where especially when children are around. Also many couples have stressful jobs and sometimes just a cuddle, a long hug or a massage with no benefit to you is the best sensual experience your wife needs. It is frustrating for us, cause we want that physical thing. So sit down with yourself ‘young man’ study your wife and her moods and study the things she love: I know my Hazy loves Hazel nut chocolates, Monday bbm messages on her deadline day (she is a journalist) and me just being there and saying nothing on those off days. Like that song : More than words, you don’t have to say you love me cause I would already know….

Aidan had this to say:

 I think that it is possible to have a good marriage without too much sex if the love is there. If a marriage is based purely on sex, it will only last as long as the sex is there. Once that ends, the marriage will probably end if there is no love. However; a marriage based on love and respect will last no matter if sex is there or not. Ideally there is both.

They say that for all newlyweds, you can mark on your bedpost the number of times you have sex in the first 2 years of marriage and in the years after that, you will probably never reach that amount in the next 50 years of marriage. This is not to say that the marriage is breaking down. It is only natural that it would drop off.

In the natural and Biblical sense, people would marry, and then soon after kids would follow. The roles would change from a courtship type of phase to a more adult and parenting phase where sex is secondary and raising and supporting a family are of primary importance. In today’s environment, we see many young couples on contraception and this interferes with the natural order of things. We are of course living in modern times and people prefer to plan nowadays. The libido is not meant to be at an all time high continually. It is cyclic.

The question we should ask is whether sex in marriage is always an indicator of a bad marriage? I do not agree that it is. Libido is primarily physical for men and more emotional for women. If it is purely emotional then the marriage probably does have a problem. If sex is based on say 50% physical then it is not necessarily a marriage problem. It may be a health problem. It may be hormonal (men and women) and a lot of other purely physical factors.

I believe that when there is not enough sex in a marriage according to one partner, then they should both seek to 1. Improve their diet (zinc, avocado, vitamins) 2. Take up physical activity 3. Actively try to work on it. If that fails then there is probably a deeper emotional problem which would be more complicated to fix. For men, there is also Viagra which could be used if there is a physical problem.

It is important to communicate and try to find the source of the problem as a couple. Both are in it together and should find a solution together.

Fred brought up this point:

Problems with sex in marriage (and this take a number of forms, eg. wanting too much, only enjoying kinky sex, having sex but not ‘being there’, or no sex at all) can sometimes be connected with abuse earlier in life, in this case it is likely that help from professionals trained in sexual counselling (such as Relate in the UK) can help and patience will be required to pull through.

Then Julie came on and asked a number of questions that were largely around what type of things are permissible in marriage such as different positions and styles and in response to her, someone identifying herself as ‘A Friend’ shared some of her story:

Dear Julie,

I understand your frustration. Sometimes, you just want somebody to give you a yes or no answer to matters that aren’t specifically laid out in scripture. I think you’ll find, though, that God is pretty clear about several things: that marriage (and sex) is meant for His glory, and that He cares deeply about you and fulfilling your life purpose (living an abundant life in Him). He also gives us the Holy Spirit to guide these questions. So, I really encourage you to seek God’s will in this area, to find out if certain aspects of sex are sinful and self-serving, or if they are pleasures for us to enjoy with our spouses. You might find that you feel distant or close to God in these areas of life- and that might be an indication of the Holy Spirit’s leading.

My husband and I are newlyweds (5 years now), so I can’t claim a lot of wisdom on this. But, I have found that the more honest we are with each other, and the more we aim for each other’s pleasure and not our own, the better. I was assaulted many years ago, before I was married, and we have learned (through trial and error and many conversations) that it helps if my husband asks before even touching me. If I dream about my attacker, he wakes me up to hold me and to tell me that it is him, my husband, and that I am safe. We also learned that sex is better in the morning, during broad daylight. We learned that for me, a couple of times a week seems like a lot, and for him, a whole week between sex seems like a long time. It also helps him to know that when I don’t feel like sex, its often because I feel unlovable, not because I am not aroused by him. I had to tell him that (he doesn’t read minds- weird huh?). Because he is privy to this information about me, he validates me without expecting sex in return, which makes me love him more. He now feels very loved and appreciated when sex happens more often than i have expressed an expectation for. These observations are unique to us. Other couples have different strategies. But, we would not know these things if we had not explicitly talked about them.

It might seem unsexy, awkward, or an extreme mood killer, but talking about your expectations for sex (preferably when you’re clothed and not in the moment) has been really helpful to us. We have both been surprised at how deeply and overwhelmingly we have felt loved by the other because of this honesty.

there are a lot of interesting and, for the  most part, helpful thoughts and ideas here and so thank you to everyone who came on and commented [including a bunch of others i didn’t use] – i definitely think i will have some more to share about this, but there is plenty of food for thought here already and lots of space in the comments section below to engage with the ideas that were shared here. i think one important thing to note is that each marriage is made up of two very unique individuals and so sex for them will look different and although we can find helpful principles and guidelines to make it easier or better, it is not likely that we will find a blanket ‘this is how sex works’ to cover each and every sexual relationship out there.

how about you? was there a thought or idea that particularly resonated with you? was there something said that you strongly disagreed with? something we left out?

please come and have your say.

[for some more thoughts on your thoughts by Brett Fish and the beautiful Val, click here]

How much sex in marriage?

So i got this comment at the bottom of the recent ‘Singleness’ Taboo Topic posted and approved it and started replying, but then thought that responding to ‘How much sex in marriage?’ on a Singleness post might be stretching the boundaries of love and sensitivity and so i decided to deal with is directly as a separate post… [singles are welcome to read, because maybe this will help]. So the comment i received is below, as it came through:

Can you do an article on “how much sex” in marriage? Say you are married, then hopefully it comes naturally and everything is great. BUT what if it does not. You are both Christian, and it says in the Bible that the woman must give herself to the husband. What if your wife is not being reasonable and you are not having sex too often. Say months go by, what is a man to do? If the wife is not willing to work at things from her side, then what should he do? Should he just wait, one, two years if need be or longer? Try to get professional help – but only if she is willing which may be difficult in some cases. It is not the all that ends all, and the love should carry the relationship. But a man has needs.

So if one partner is not up to meeting the needs of the other then what can you suggest from a Christian standpoint?

And let’s be honest, just doing this because I knew how many people would come and read this post due to the title alone [you guys!]

[to read the continuation of discussion on this topic between Brett and his wife, the Beautiful Val [tbV] click here]

But ja, a very interesting question and ‘Sex in Marriage’ is definitely a Taboo Topic that could do with being handled as that is certainly something you don’t get told much about in church.
[The ‘No sex til marriage’ mantra seems to be it as far as sex and the church is concerned]
This is not the kind of topic that is brought up a lot at the dinner tables i hang out with, but i do imagine i would find it a particularly difficult one to invite my friends to share my stories on as well for this blog.

so let me try and deal with this by speaking a little more generally, by specifically looking at some of the key issues which i think underlie the question. and hope that some of my cool friends will add their thoughts in the comments section afterwards.

i think i would put the ‘how much sex in marriage?’ question alongside the ‘how far is too far before marriage?’ question in suggesting that both of those might be the wrong questions to be asking.

and it might help to more properly frame the question i am hearing you ask in this example, which is ‘how much sex can i get in marriage?’ because it doesn’t sound like your concern here is for your wife. this is a very me-focused question, which is fine to ask [we all have me questions] but i think it is more important to be asking a ‘her’ question first. i don’t think the me question is a good place to begin, otherwise that shows a misunderstanding of marriage.

this passage from Ephesians sums a lot of it up for me powerfully:

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church — 30 for we are members of His body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery — but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

# it speaks of a mutual submission and so that is an important thing to notice – this passage has been used by many to somehow try to show the woman as being under, or less than the man, but it starts off with verse 21 which boldly states this is a two way thing [and it’s done out of reverence for Christ!]

# then, what is interesting, after you get past all the woman submission stuff, which a lot of women have found difficult to take or understand or hold on to [again because of a lot of damage that has been done when this has been misused causing understandable hesitance to embrace this piece] is the description of the man’s responsibility. the woman is meant to submit, yes, but the man is meant to love ‘just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.’

how did Jesus show His Love for the church? By dying for her.

um. wo. now wait a minute there. i don’t remember that being in my vows. [well it was there, if you took the time to read the finer print]

so if we go back to your question in the context of this statement, does that change how it looks at all? if we make her the subject of the question, then it looks a little more like, ‘what are her needs? and how are you meeting them?’ ‘are there some needs she has outside of sex that you are maybe not meeting, which may possibly be having an affect on how much sex she is being open to? [this is really difficult to say in terms of your situation, because i don’t know you and so i just have to ask questions – you will be able to ask them more specifically and on target] ‘have you tried discussing this area of your marriage from a her point of view or only from a ‘this is what i need/want’ point of view?

i just think there might be some different questions to ask. what is the end point you are looking for? you being sexually fulfilled or the two of you having a real, authentic, honest relationship? and is it possible to have both [hopefully]. but i would suggest the latter is more important? have you listened to her at all on the topic or have you simply presented your side and your needs?

so those are my thoughts which feel very scattered as to some extent it feels like i am addressing a hypothetical question as i don’t really know any of the people involved, but there are some key questions and principles here which all of us can grab hold of strongly for marriage. and so hopefully there was something helpful and if anyone else has some helpful thoughts, as always please chime in…

is it worth getting help for your marriage? absolutely. and that can come in various shapes or forms. is there a married couple that you both respect that you could ask to sit down with both of you and give you space to talk out some of this stuff with them? is there a pastor or leader you both trust enough to be able to meet with you both individually to hear both sides and then together to give you a chance to share your feelings with each other? or maybe even a professional counsellor who may be able to help.

i say this cautiously, but my thinking is that if in some way you have made sex and being sexually fulfilled the centre of your marriage or the focus of it, then you are likely to be in some trouble and this will not be easily resolved… if, however, you have made your wife the centre of your marriage [with God the foundation, of course], then it will be a lot easier to figure this one out, and every other one that comes along.

Love her well, look after her needs, go out of your way to spoil her and treat her well just for the sake of her feeling good [not for what you might get] and who knows what might happen as a result…

 

[I ended up taking a whole bunch of the comments below in response to this blog and compiling them in a separate post which you are invited to read here]

Taboo Topics: Singleness – meet Dani Scoville [and a look at Deconstructing Boundaries]

[Dani is a friend that tbV and i met while working with the Simple Way and she currently lives in San Francisco, which is just across the water from us, this is a piece she wrote a year ago which was published in Sojo.net and which she offered to share with us]

When my intoxicated friend leaned in to kiss me, I didn’t think I was just the most readily available girl. No, I convinced myself that his true affections for me were coming out. But the next morning, when I realized what it actually meant, I felt less worthy of being loved than I did before.

This wasn’t the first time I lied to myself in the moment and felt awful later, but I wanted it to be the last. I told my friend that wasn’t going to happen again, but I didn’t attempt to process why it happened. Then I was asked to organize an event around the intersection of spirituality and sexuality.

As I began reflecting on my past sexual interactions with men, I tried to bring God into the conversation for the first time.

It was easier to punish myself with guilt, follow youth group-style sexual boundaries or just say, “forget it” and do whatever I desired. I was reluctant to process my sexuality. Not only would it be a lot of work and uncover a lot of past hurt, but what if it unraveled foundational faith and lifestyle beliefs?

Up until six months ago, I had never questioned my decision to not have sex until I was married. I just did what I thought I was supposed to.

Once I began to reflect on it, though, I realized I was angry that God was asking me to wait. Or maybe it was OK to have sex, and God hadn’t told me sooner! I envisioned what would happen if I didn’t wait.

I decided that I would give my current relationship six months. If we were in love, I would give in.

But no matter how I attempted to deconstruct sex outside of marriage, I still felt that this change in my standards would result in me putting an unhealthy amount of expectation on that man to marry me. I knew that I would feel all those years of waiting were cheapened. Because, for me, sex holds an intense emotional and spiritual association.

I didn’t know all this until I questioned. And now, the only way I can envision having sex with someone is in a safe and committed context. This has also led to the more recent realization that I needed to revise my sexual boundaries in dating.

I listed all the events of the past year: what I enjoyed, what made me feel used, and what I needed to allow myself to enjoy. After I processed the last year, I thought about how my desire to be loved and accepted by a man was rooted in a desire to be love and accepted by God. If I first believe that I am God’s beloved, then I would be confident in my interactions with men, knowing I’m already loved and accepted.

So I drafted another list: this one of boundaries self-confident me would ideally want and be able to stick to. A week later, I met a guy who walked me home and kissed me good night at my gate. Rather than slam the gate in his face to make sure he didn’t come upstairs, I told him I was interested in him but that I wasn’t going to invite him in. When I woke up the next morning, I felt great.

I didn’t expect that deconstructing my sexual boundaries in the name of faith would cause me to develop boundaries. But these new ones aren’t oppressive, because they come from an understanding of myself. No one else came up with them but me. Now when the temptation to get a momentary intimacy fix is there, I’ll have my own voice and story reminding me to not give in and wait for something rooted in love.

[Dani Scoville lives in San Francisco and is an active member of ReImagine, a community focused on integrating the teachings of Jesus into daily life. to read more of what Dani writes, check out her blog, ‘Through the Roof Beams’ here]

[For another story on Singleness, meet my friend Beverley by clicking here]

[For an inspirational post titled ‘I don’t wait anymore’ click here]

a letter, from Magda Pecsenye, to her sons about stopping rape.

‘Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You’re 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn’t something you’ve heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it…’

with that attention-grabbing opening paragraph, Magda Pecsenye, who is the writer for the blog askmoxie.org addresses a topic that is close to my heart, with one of the most profound parenting pieces i think i have ever read. my friend who sent me the link, gave it the tagline, ‘This is so great. I wanna be a parent like THIS.’

you really should simply go to her website and read the letter in full – i messaged her and asked if i could reproduce it and she gave me permission to pull quotes from it and scribe a piece, but really you are not going to be able to get the full effect unless you head on over to her site and just read the whole thing.

Magda is clearly someone who has been open and honest with her boys from a young age [which, even as a non parent, i think is completely the way to go – my official ‘introduction to sex’ was the ‘what every boy should know about sex’ book that was left on my bed by my parents when i turned 21 if i recall correctly]. But by encouraging open talk and discussing things such as boundaries and appropriate behaviour and acknowledging when someone is saying “No!” and being okay with presenting your own “No!” in circumstances you are not feeling comfortable with, it feels like she has laid an excellent foundation for the message that follows.

she moves effortlessly from her explanation of the sex talks that have happened as her little guys have started growing towards the age of being young men [they are 8 and 11 now] to a space of really describing beautifully where the place of sex is:

‘If you’re ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don’t want to have sex with that person, don’t do it. And if you’re ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn’t ask you for it, don’t do it. It’s only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone’s going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself–that goes along with having opposable thumbs).’

she then closes off with some words of wisdom for her two young boys because “Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we’ve talked about.” and ends with some instruction of how they should behave if they are in a situation where someone is hurting a girl in some way and you can check out the full list on her blog here but i wanted to highlight the second of them:

2. If it’s not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you’re someplace you’re not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you’re calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don’t pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there’s an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

the bit about immunity is priceless. this is a parent who loves her kids and is training them in the way they should go [i’m sure i heard that somewhere before] and she ends off this amazing epistle by reminding them of that ad of her belief that they are really going to ‘get’ this:

We’ve been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

amazing, incredible, life-changing and who knows, person-saving?

but this has just been a taste – give yourself an extra few minutes and read the whole post here and see what else this lady has to say…

new Dangerous Things You Can Least Expect video… possibly best yet?

if you have never watched or heard of a Brad Fish ‘Dangerous Things You Can Least Expect’ video then where have you been?

Brad Fish is an alternative persona of Brett Fish [heeeeeey!?!] who runs a You Tube show in which he gives wise wisdom [is there any other kind?] in terms of friendly warning to prepare people from things they might have thought of as being innocent and dangerless but which in fact turn out to be pretty dangerous-potentialistic… you can view some of the old videos here and also here but this is the latest in the series and Brad Fish might have outdone himself…

So watch as Brad Fish warns the public about the dangers of vilens… [excuse the spelling, it are not his strong point of his]