Continuing the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ conversation with Brett Fish and the beautiful Val [tbV]

the other day i posted an answer to a ‘how much sex in marriage?’ question that someone left after a ‘Singleness’ blog post and it got a whole lot of attention… realising that Sex in Marriage is a bit of a Taboo Topic that doesn’t get much attention, this felt like a healthy conversation to continue and so i had an online chat with Val about some of the stuff that came up in the comments section, so we could share it with you:

[Brett]: Hey Val, so when you read through the comments section on the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ blog, there were one or two things that got your back up. What would you say was the biggest of those that caused a reaction in you?

[Valerie]: Hi B. I think for the most part I appreciated the comments and agree that sex (or at least one or both partner’s interaction with it) can be an indicator of deeper issues in a marriage. I think my biggest issue was the implied suggestion that a lack or reduction of sex is indicative of marital problems. This comment in particular got me: “I think that if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow, however if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship, sex will illustrate that.”

[Brett]: Hm, interesting. I agree that if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship then sex is likely to be one of the places where that will be picked up. But I imagine you are more hesitant about the idea that if things are good in a relationship that sex will naturally follow? Is that right or what exactly is it about that statement [in the context of what you’ve said about problems with sex can be an indicator of deeper issues within a marriage] that you are taking issue to?

[Valerie]: I think what I heard some folk say is that a lack of sex is ALWAYS an indication of deeper issues and marital “rot”. I don’t like the idea that the natural result of happiness, comfortability and security is SEX! The implication being that sex is directly correlated with happiness, comfortability, security and general health of a marriage (the more you’re having the better it is; the less you’re having the more “in danger” you are.) My concern here is that this plays strongly into the dominant role sex plays in our culture, both within the church and without.

For many churches, the prime focus on relationships before marriage is sex. Don’t have it!

And the prime focus on relationships after marriage is sex. Have it!

So sex dominates our understandings of relationships, marriage, love, mutuality, fulfillment, sin and right living, and health – in the church. Meanwhile, outside the doors, sex dominates too. We have a culture driven by sex and sexuality – it pervades our music, movies, the market place, books, magazines, and is placed at the forefront of relationships.

I feel uncomfortable with this preoccupation with sex both in and out the church, both before and after marriage. is all

[Brett]: I hear you on that and definitely agree with you. The church could definitely improve their stance on sex in terms of the way it is presented and spoken about [and not spoken about]. Ultimately if the church is not speaking about sex, then we have to turn to the other voices on it which will primarily be the media and Hollywood, not great proponents of healthy attractive sexuality.

Karen seemed to have a similar opinion to you on sex not being at the centre of marriage, but also spoke of how it can be a good indicator if something is not healthy.

“Many counsellors and leaders in churches that I know, when helping couples will ask what the sexual relationship is like to get an indication of the health of the marriage. So although it is not the be all and end all and both parties should be happy with the amount of sex that happens in the marriage, we have to make sure our marriages are healthy, that our relationship with God is healthy so that we lack nothing, that He fulfills our needs and makes us happy, so that we don’t expect our spouses to make us happy.”

Is that something you would agree with? That a good marriage is not defined on how much or little sex you are having [other commenters mentioned things like emotional issues, abuse in the past and other aspects which can affect your sex] but that it might be a warning sign, a smoke alarm if you will, to the possibility of there being a fire needing to be taken care of?

[Valerie]: In short, I don’t think the strength or health of a marriage should be defined on how much or little sex is happening. But, if one or both parties are finding the amount of sex (shall we leave the quality to the side for now?) an issue, which I believe is where the first blog post started, then by all means that needs to be addressed. And I think the first blog did that well – in essence you flipped it on it’s head from “how much am I entitled to” to the deeper issues that could, and often do, underlie a question like that. The back-story if you like.

My main concern is that we don’t perpetuate the myth that sex is the pinnacle of a relationship. It’s what we tell Christian young people before they get married and create in essence a mythical “IT”, much like Hollywood does. When the newly-wed couple eventually gets down to it we have bogged them down with so much guilt, shame, expectations and assumptions along with an idealized vision of “IT” which, let’s be honest, has little to do with the actual messy, fun, awkward, emotional, vulnerable, experience of sex-in-real-life that it’s little wonder they get so easily entangled in the complexities of it.

And I’m worried that similar discussions of sex and it’s place in marriage do essentially the same: elevate sex to being the “IT” of marriage – the purpose, the indicator of health, the thing we should be striving for (more or better of), the reason why we do the things that make our spouse feel loved etc (ooh, and that last one especially, the “I’m buying you flowers because I love you, but secretly I’m really just earning brownie points and we both know it.”)

[Brett]: Yes, exactly. You’re talking about the ‘No sex til marriage’ whip that is held above Christian young people [which becomes completely guilt-inducing every time they mess up in any way sexually] and then at some stage they get married and are instantly meant to change to a “sex is allowed and great” mentality. That is such a confusing thing we do to people and it can take years to work through that one.

Sex in marriage IS great. But you know what is also great in marriage? Cuddling. And cooking a meal together. One of my favourite things [and I think yours] is to lie next to each other at the end of the day and just talk about life and ‘solve all the world’s problems’ [well, most of them]. Also playing board and card games together. Watching a series we both enjoy. And so on. I think this is a message that could be given out a lot more on this one – that sex is great alongside a lot of other things that are great.

[Valerie]: Totally. We follow up the “no sex outside marriage” whip with the “sex in marriage” whip (that’s another story!) that creates a lot of guilt about how much is being had, shame about what is and isn’t allowable now that the general veil has been lifted, expectations about what it’s going to be like. So phrases like “if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow” just add guilt on guilt and shame on shame and resentment and disappointment and even blame at its worst. Yes, it IS wonderful. It is messy and awkward and vulnerable. It is fun. But it is also one – yep, just ONE – of a myriad things that make my relationship good and fun and healthy and fulfilling and satisfying and comfortable and secure and and and. Let’s get a little perspective in here, yo!

We would LOVE to hear your thoughts and comments on our thoughts and comments and any follow-up questions you might have…

[to read the original blog post that started this all, click here]

How much sex in marriage?

So i got this comment at the bottom of the recent ‘Singleness’ Taboo Topic posted and approved it and started replying, but then thought that responding to ‘How much sex in marriage?’ on a Singleness post might be stretching the boundaries of love and sensitivity and so i decided to deal with is directly as a separate post… [singles are welcome to read, because maybe this will help]. So the comment i received is below, as it came through:

Can you do an article on “how much sex” in marriage? Say you are married, then hopefully it comes naturally and everything is great. BUT what if it does not. You are both Christian, and it says in the Bible that the woman must give herself to the husband. What if your wife is not being reasonable and you are not having sex too often. Say months go by, what is a man to do? If the wife is not willing to work at things from her side, then what should he do? Should he just wait, one, two years if need be or longer? Try to get professional help – but only if she is willing which may be difficult in some cases. It is not the all that ends all, and the love should carry the relationship. But a man has needs.

So if one partner is not up to meeting the needs of the other then what can you suggest from a Christian standpoint?

And let’s be honest, just doing this because I knew how many people would come and read this post due to the title alone [you guys!]

[to read the continuation of discussion on this topic between Brett and his wife, the Beautiful Val [tbV] click here]

But ja, a very interesting question and ‘Sex in Marriage’ is definitely a Taboo Topic that could do with being handled as that is certainly something you don’t get told much about in church.
[The ‘No sex til marriage’ mantra seems to be it as far as sex and the church is concerned]
This is not the kind of topic that is brought up a lot at the dinner tables i hang out with, but i do imagine i would find it a particularly difficult one to invite my friends to share my stories on as well for this blog.

so let me try and deal with this by speaking a little more generally, by specifically looking at some of the key issues which i think underlie the question. and hope that some of my cool friends will add their thoughts in the comments section afterwards.

i think i would put the ‘how much sex in marriage?’ question alongside the ‘how far is too far before marriage?’ question in suggesting that both of those might be the wrong questions to be asking.

and it might help to more properly frame the question i am hearing you ask in this example, which is ‘how much sex can i get in marriage?’ because it doesn’t sound like your concern here is for your wife. this is a very me-focused question, which is fine to ask [we all have me questions] but i think it is more important to be asking a ‘her’ question first. i don’t think the me question is a good place to begin, otherwise that shows a misunderstanding of marriage.

this passage from Ephesians sums a lot of it up for me powerfully:

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church — 30 for we are members of His body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery — but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

# it speaks of a mutual submission and so that is an important thing to notice – this passage has been used by many to somehow try to show the woman as being under, or less than the man, but it starts off with verse 21 which boldly states this is a two way thing [and it’s done out of reverence for Christ!]

# then, what is interesting, after you get past all the woman submission stuff, which a lot of women have found difficult to take or understand or hold on to [again because of a lot of damage that has been done when this has been misused causing understandable hesitance to embrace this piece] is the description of the man’s responsibility. the woman is meant to submit, yes, but the man is meant to love ‘just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.’

how did Jesus show His Love for the church? By dying for her.

um. wo. now wait a minute there. i don’t remember that being in my vows. [well it was there, if you took the time to read the finer print]

so if we go back to your question in the context of this statement, does that change how it looks at all? if we make her the subject of the question, then it looks a little more like, ‘what are her needs? and how are you meeting them?’ ‘are there some needs she has outside of sex that you are maybe not meeting, which may possibly be having an affect on how much sex she is being open to? [this is really difficult to say in terms of your situation, because i don’t know you and so i just have to ask questions – you will be able to ask them more specifically and on target] ‘have you tried discussing this area of your marriage from a her point of view or only from a ‘this is what i need/want’ point of view?

i just think there might be some different questions to ask. what is the end point you are looking for? you being sexually fulfilled or the two of you having a real, authentic, honest relationship? and is it possible to have both [hopefully]. but i would suggest the latter is more important? have you listened to her at all on the topic or have you simply presented your side and your needs?

so those are my thoughts which feel very scattered as to some extent it feels like i am addressing a hypothetical question as i don’t really know any of the people involved, but there are some key questions and principles here which all of us can grab hold of strongly for marriage. and so hopefully there was something helpful and if anyone else has some helpful thoughts, as always please chime in…

is it worth getting help for your marriage? absolutely. and that can come in various shapes or forms. is there a married couple that you both respect that you could ask to sit down with both of you and give you space to talk out some of this stuff with them? is there a pastor or leader you both trust enough to be able to meet with you both individually to hear both sides and then together to give you a chance to share your feelings with each other? or maybe even a professional counsellor who may be able to help.

i say this cautiously, but my thinking is that if in some way you have made sex and being sexually fulfilled the centre of your marriage or the focus of it, then you are likely to be in some trouble and this will not be easily resolved… if, however, you have made your wife the centre of your marriage [with God the foundation, of course], then it will be a lot easier to figure this one out, and every other one that comes along.

Love her well, look after her needs, go out of your way to spoil her and treat her well just for the sake of her feeling good [not for what you might get] and who knows what might happen as a result…

 

[I ended up taking a whole bunch of the comments below in response to this blog and compiling them in a separate post which you are invited to read here]

Lars and the real girl church

so last nite tbV and i finally watched the movie ‘Lars and the real girl’ which had come highly recommended by our Philly friend Janell Anema and it was indeed well worth the watch.

Ryan Gosling [who i have been completely against since he starred in ‘The Notebook’ which is a movie which irritated me beyond belief for reasons that most people don’t really care much about] is phenomenal as Lars, who is a likeable yet completely socially strange office cubicle worker who develops a sweet and completely innocent romantic relationship with an anatomically correct sex doll [basically], a ‘Realdoll’ who he calls ‘Bianca’ and introduces to his brother and his pregnant sister-in-law and then later to the rest of the town as his girlfriend.

Lars is completely serious though and probably the most powerful and defining scene in the movie is the one where his brother and sister in law get all excited because Lars is bringing across ‘his girlfriend’ [having been a complete recluse living in their garage converted into a room] and then it cuts to their stunned speechless faces as they sit opposite Lars and this dressed up sex doll ‘Bianca’ that they have just been introduced to. Cue long drawn out pause ending in a ‘can i speak to you in the kitchen?’ moment between the couple.

amazing story, brilliant performances by all the key and support players and it scores bonus points for casting Mark Brendanawicz [from my favourite current sitcom, Parks and Recreation, actor Paul Schneider] as the brother of Lars.

but where the movie comes to life is when they take Lars to this doctor/psychologist under the pretence that they are taking Bianca to get checked up and she suggests to them that they have to go along with the delusion which Lars has created if they want to get to the bottom of it.

Lars brother and sister-in-law approach the leaders in the church and after initial reluctance they agree to go along with it and soon everyone in this small town are treating Bianca as if she is real.

this for me was when it stopped being a movie about Lars and this girl and became a movie about Lars and the church – at one key moment of the movie Lars is all upset and shouts at his sister in law that no-one cares for him. she counters with the fact that everyone in the village has included and welcomed and supported and loved Bianca because of him, because they love Lars and it is their way of showing it.

you REALLY have to see the movie if you want to really ‘get’ this because it most likely starts sounding pretty creepy somewhere between ‘sex doll’ and… well just at sex doll probably, but in actual fact Bianca is anything but. as they start to treat her as if she is real and continue to love and treat Lars as if nothing is wrong with him, slowly the townspeople start to realise a whole lot of stuff about themselves.

the church being the church. instead of getting caught up with ‘the need to fix Lars’, they choose instead [some of them against their better judgement altho they change through the story] to focus on the primary goal of the church, that of Loving Lars, and the results are powerful.

yeah just go and watch this movie! Ryan Gosling, all is forgiven. how he wasn’t considered for a Oscar for this performance i do not know [altho he was apparently nominated for a Golden Globe]

and church, let’s learn from this. Love first. Let God largely take care of the rest… but never at the expense of Love.

the illegal car dealership i run.

well, not really, but i think the permanent ADT guard who lives in a little wooden hut across from my buddy Dunc’s house where i stay may be suspecting that’s what i do…

purely for the number of different cars of all shapes and sizes that he has seen me drive into 2 Smithers Road over the last two months…

i am always friendly and i always wave at him [or hims, because i think there are a bunch of them] which is probably what they look for in terms of suspicious people trying to look unsuspiciousful…

from Val’s folks to my friend Linda, from my buddy Ross to Beth’s mom, and then of course both Dunc and Megs cars [who i live with, Dunc and Megs i mean, the cars stay outside!] and a lift from my mom and my buddy Rob and Reegs and Mandy  and i imagine i have possibly left someone out, it has been insanely beautiful to see and experience the generosity of friends and family.

[thank you all so very deeply!]

i call it the church being the church – some people see church as that meeting that happens at that place on that day… i tend to see it as a friend saying, “I’m going overseas for three weeks, please feel free to use my car” or as two separate friends buying tickets to the cricket for tbV and me, or my buddy refusing to let me pay for a movie, or countless drinks and meals and one friend lending me his hockey stick and another friend giving me his Meltz voucher so i can buy a hoodie…

i do also see church as that meeting which can happen at that place on that day [and am grateful for some amazing experiences of church and especially worship i got to have while i was here] but it can never stay there. if what happens in that place never spills out into everyday life, then it’s a joke and a mockery and a fake [and pretty much a spitting into the face of God]

but one of the highlights of being home has been reconnecting with people who really ‘get’ what this church thing is about [or more importantly who] and meeting some new inspiring people that are on the verge of doing amazing incredible practical things for the gospel which are often the surest sign of the Love of God…

i am so hopeful for church. God’s people doing God’s stuff lavishly… keep on church… keep on!

“Weekly Photo Challenge: (Unique)”

this is one of my favourite pics ever and it comes from the days of cameras with actual removable film and this particular photo is clearly a mistake of double exposure, but one that works so powerfully.

so the people worshipping in a weekly church service appear to be standing beneath the heavens and it creates such a powerfully artistic expression:

…which to me screams of something that is completely Unique.

[For the previous Photo Challenge on the theme of ‘Love’ click here]

a response to a nonny miss? part iii: truth in Love

‘So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.’ [Ephesians 4.11-16]

that is a rather long passage, but i do generally like to give context for a verse i want to use and i felt like this whole passage sums up this part of the message that i want to take from the anonymous email i received a week ago.

so this is the portion of the email i am going to be looking at now:

‘Brett-boy, you need to rethink how you spend your energy.
And here I’m speaking in particular about the humor side of your energy. To take an example: Brett, let’s be honest: your youtube videos suck. Big time. And I don’t even see the purpose in it. Will you really stand before the Jesus one day and when He asks you “So how did you spend your valuable time?” answer “Well, there are these youtube videos I made.”’

this is both a simple concept and a difficult one to get right [perhaps these are all so easy for me to blog about as i have lots of experience in the getting-it-wrong department in days gone by] but the idea mentioned in the Ephesians passage is of ‘speaking the truth in love’ with the intended purpose being that ‘we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of Him who is the head, that is, Christ. From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.’

this point seems to almost precede the point of the message. a question one needs to ask when challenging someone else about something is, ‘Am I right? Is this thing, that I am about to speak to that person, the Truth?’ Once I have ascertained that I am speaking Truth to them, it seems to be so very important that I get the ‘in Love’ part of the delivery of my message right, otherwise to some extent the Truth is invalidated. Was it Truthful? Yes. Did I speak it in Love? No, well then the whole message is lost!

Why is this so important? Well Jesus has set it out for us so clearly: When asked what the greatest commandment in the law is, ‘Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” [Matthew 22.37-40]

so the end point is always Love. and until i can get that part right, then it might be better for me to hold my tongue. the Ephesians passage reminds us that the intended consequence of speaking the Truth in Love is that the whole body will be built up and so that each person will be able to do the job required of them. this is vital, crucial stuff here.

i really believe that one of the largest travesties of the church for so long has been that those who ‘get the Truth’ and speak it, so often don’t have the Love to accompany it, and so much damage is done. but it goes further than that because i also strongly believe that too often those who ‘get the Love’ part of the Gospel, so often refrain from speaking the Truth. and damage is done both ways. we confuse ‘being Love-filled’ with not challenging people or confronting sin when it needs to happen [but in Love]. we mistake ‘being nice’ with ‘being Loving’ and that too can have terrible consequences.

BRINGING IT BACK TO WHAT IT’S ABOUT

so if my anonymous friend was wanting to do a better thing, how could that have happened?

to me, ‘Brett-boy’ sounds very condescending – that might not have been intended, but simply using ‘Brett’ would have done the trick.

‘let’s be honest – your videos suck’ could have perhaps been a more personal ‘i must be honest, i don’t really think your videos are all that great’ which at least removes some of the sting and personalises the opinion instead of proclaiming a statement of truth.

and i have already spoken a little bit into ‘And I don’t even see the purpose in it’ which could have been posted as a question such as,’I’d be interested to hear the reason behind why you make these videos?’

are any of these hugely malicious things? not at all – but out there in the world, and sadly too often in the church, there are examples that happen all the time that are way more hurtful and display a complete lack of Love and it is those that i am wanting to speak into.

the writer to the Corinthians didn’t seem to think Truth counted all that much [or anything else for that matter] if Love was not a huge part of the message both in word and deed:

‘If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.’ [1 Corinthians 13.1-3]

having hard Truth spoken to you in Love doesn’t always mean it is easy to hear. but it definitely becomes a lot easier to hear and if i walk away from you completely convinced that you Love me, then i am so much more likely to take some more time in considering the words of Truth you have spoken to me, even if i did not receive them well in the moment.

what’s your experience been in hearing hard Truth from people spoken in Love?
and i suppose the more painful question of, is this ringing any bell for you of times when you may have spoken well-meaning Truth but with a lack of the much-needed Love?

[to read on about receiving the rebuke you send click here]

the days i wrote about hitler, retards, hating christianity and gay people…

one of my facebook friends [Catherine Rogers] posted a status about the overabundance of brett FISH anderson articles/blogs/videos on her newsfeed and the struggle to pick which to give her time to [not complaining that there was so much but that there was too much choice] and so somehow five minutes later i found myself looking back through some early pre-Simple Way blog posts i made two or more years ago and finding a bunch i thort would be good to share… but then i was hit by the dilemma of not wanting to make Catherine’s newsfeed explode and so i had the cunning plan of sticking them all in one blog post, which altho it won’t help with the choice factor, will certainly be a lot better than posting each one separately… i think there is some good stuff here and i hope you find something useful…

SHOULD I STAY OR SHOULD I GO: shortest blog post in the history of brett fish blogposting but hectically profound: https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go

BLESSED ARE THE RETARDS: this must have been posted before anyone was reading my blog cos i didn’t get a single hate mail for the title – or else maybe people got it – maybe this should be a taboo topic of dealing with or just being around people who are hectically different than you in some way cos they don’t have lessons on how to do that at school – https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/blessed-are-the-retards

REASONS TO HATE CHRISTIANITY: in the meantime this one DID get me into trouble, with one of the leaders of my denomination [never mind local congregation, i aim high!] because he lambasted me for writing this having read the title but never read what i was saying which was kinda not the title [but possibly giving a reason to be somewhat annoyed with christians] – https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/reasons-to-hate-christianity-part-i

THE WAGES OF GOD, ARE YOU: another short to the point one focused on the economy of heaven, and if it’s the economy God is interested in, the surely we should be as well – https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/the-wages-of-god-are-you

ALL MEN SHALL KNOW YOU FOR YOUR HATRED OF THE GAY – another worrying one if you stop at the title but this one is SO much completely close to my heart that it is definitely worth a repost – https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/03/02/all-men-shall-know-you-for-your-hatred-of-the-gay/

HITLER’S MOM – wow, again this must have been the days before people figured out i had a blog – just a short but important glimpse into the way we see people and the influence we may have in their lives and the need for intentionality and always holding on to hope – https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/hitlers-mom/