This is an interesting clip that tbV showed me, by orthodox priest, Steve Robinson, attempting to show the difference between a Protestant and an Orthodox view of salvation. It is only 9 minutes long and really worth a quick watch:
For me, it feels like a tasty snack.
While i don’t think it gives much clarity to some of the harder questions in terms of the orthodox view [what happens to people who reject God and turn their back on Him? Or is he suggesting that everyone ‘makes it’ in the end? Because i think too many of the teachings of Jesus Himself stand in contradiction to that idea] there is one thing i really liked about this video.
The part where Steve places the God chair in front of the messed up human chair [through the stories of the woman caught in sin and the paralysed man etc] time and time again.
Mankind is messed up and broken and in need of help and that is where God shows up. When a person turns their back on God, God moves towards them and continues to pursue with love, forgiveness and life. That is the powerful heart of this video for me.
i’m not convinced that is a specifically orthodox view, because i don’t think i’m particularly orthodox and yet that is completely how i view God. Showing up in the places and situation where He is most needed. Often through the presence of other people. But also simply as Himself. Yes, we believe that God is everywhere, but all throughout Scripture we read time and time again of instances where ‘God showed up!’
So while i don’t think the clip is necessarily all-answering or even the most accurate depiction of the difference between orthodox and protestant [too many labels!], that part for me was a really good description of the incarnation – God being present.
What about you? What did you get from this video?
[For another view of God straight out of Isaiah 55, check this out]
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Irresistibly Fish 
Interesting illustration … and it helped me sort through and organize some of the questions I’m wrestling with. (Didn’t really answer any of them, but at least I got to see them from a different angle!)
The Protestant view, as he describes it, gave me chills, and finally I caught a glimpse of something that’s long troubled me with regard to the teachings I’ve heard in many churches. This is almost a mechanistic view of God … “God is perfect, therefore He cannot look upon sin.” Watching him move those chairs around in the first section was like watching someone try to put the like poles of two magnets together – not possible. So does that mean God is just a “divine force”? Or … is He all-powerful and therefore able to do whatever he pleases – because if so, He is CHOOSING to turn His back, even on His own son. Well, He’s God – He can do whatever He chooses … but it makes Him kinda hard to like, and even harder to understand.
The Orthodox view, as he describes it, appears to be that no matter WHAT you do, God will keep seeking you out and offering fellowship. This aligns with “I stand at the door and knock.” At first it looked as though he was implying that no matter what you do, you will always be forgiven, and therefore no consequences for sin. Then right at the end … so interesting: If you accept His forgiveness through Christ, when you die you can walk in His light; but if you reject His forgiveness, that same light will burn like fire. This is the first explanation of hell that has ever made any sense to me.
Thanks for sharing. I’d be interested to continue the discussion.
The chairs are very distracting. If you close your eyes you can hear what he says.
1. The protestant view maps a way to salvation through Christ (Rom 5:1-2)
2. God DOES “look upon man” but He sees our rebellion against him and as a loving God, He must punish rebellion (in the same way our parents punished our disobedience or the law of the land punishes criminals)
4. The orthodox view relies on the presupposition that God is love and because he is love he allows man to do whatever he wants and he will forgive all in the end. But this is not what the bible says (Rom 6:1). The verses he quotes of Jesus forgiving sinners (woman at the well, woman in sin, etc.) all clearly points to them coming to a realisation of their sin (if you read the whole story). In addition, Jesus also adds “Go and sin no more” a.k.a. repentance. Thus, without repentance there is no salvation. Without Jesus there is no salvation.
5. “God is love” is an immutable attribute of God but he ignores the fact that God is also Holy. Holy in love. Man and God is separated by moral character. Does a parent that ignores discipline in the home love his/her child? No! (Rom 2:6-8)
6. Because God is love He must punish sin and Hell is His chosen method (for the devil and all who call the world their first love 1 John 2:15-17). Ask God why Hell is Just. But when you do, don’t subject God to your human standards of what justice is for rebelling against a Holy God. God’s justice is perfect.
7. The orthodox view promotes universalism (all gets saved). He used the “bed in Sheol” verse (Psalm 139:8) out of context as a proof text. Psalm 139 speaks of the greatness of God and how he his everywhere and NOT of Jesus fetching us from hell after we have rejected him.
I am sure there is more to the orthodox view than what is presented here but what this hireling is saying (orthodox view) is not what the bible says. The orthodox view presented here is a false gospel and ignores everything Jesus said.
Thanks for your thoughts, Kelvin. I found the chairs really helpful in tems of showing who is facing where actually and any analogy is only as strong as the point it is making as Steve said.
In terms of your point four if you watch the clip again i think you will find that he does speak the “Go and sin no more.”
The only question i had was what you mentioned anout possible universalism – everyone makes it – but it was not clear to me whether
Or not he was actually saying that but it definitely was not clear that he wasn’t. Chatted to a friend of mine who said universalism is not traditionally the orthodox view. I just thought the picture of a loving God pursuing sinners was far more accurare than a grumpy God turning His back on them.
Thanks for posting this, Brett. I saw this video a while back and I think it is part of a greater discussion on one’s view of Atonement. To me this is more accurately a illustrative comparison of the ‘conventional’ Evangelical view of the Penal Substitution theory of atonement versus the more Orthodox view of Atonement that does not subscribe to the penal/punishment view. In very simple terms, “Did God kill Jesus or did we?”
I found this debate quite helpful in highlighting the standpoints of these 2 different views:
Thankx Dave and good to see that other point of view – hadn’t considered that – will check out your link!
Ag, for you, such a pleasure!
Hey Brett! Crazy that I came across this blog! I volunteered with you and your beautiful wife at the simple way in Philly about 3 or 4 years ago! As an orthodox Christian I can see how this video can raise many questions and I thought of a few links that may help provide more clarification:
Fr. Andrew Damick, who is aconvert from the protestant belief to orthodoxy, writes great blog posts and I think this one is especially relevant to the topic you’ve posted about. http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/01/22/orthodox-christians-believe-justification-response-protestant-criticisms/
Also the http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/ has many questions and answers regarding a variety of topics in the orthodox church.. I hope these links help!
-Mariam
Thanks for stopping by, Mariam, wow small world indeed. Will try take a look at those links this coming week when we have our inet sorted after moving into a new house. Love brett fish