just watching the rob bell furore that has swept up has once again brought something to the fore which i think needs comment and some thort by people who claim to be Jesus-followers…
one of the accusations that has been made against rob bell is that he is a universalist which as i understand it is someone who believes that everyone is going to end up in heaven, and by definition no one ends up in hell.
i don’t know if rob bell is a universalist. people have seemed to infer that from the questions he asks in the promo video for his latest book: ‘Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived.’ But according to the one article i read, it says, “after all, on page 72 he actually states, “Do I believe in a literal hell? Of course.” [really good article response to the rob bell stuff here]
but that is not my concern. if he believes that then i definitely would take a stand against the belief because i think the Bible is largely clear on that matter and a lot of Jesus’ teaching and parables seem to deal with who will make it and who won’t.
what concerns me is how amped so many christians seem to be to point people towards hell. my friend Ant Martin mentioned to me how many people have responded to the Rob Bell video by making statements like “reality check, Ghandi’s in hell..” i mean, firstly spell his name right, it’s Gandhi… the question Rob Bell asks in his video is, “Gandhi’s in hell? Really? You know that for sure?” and people divebombed him…
as far as i understand it, it is through faith in Jesus Christ that we receive forgiveness of our sins and are made righteous to be able to live eternally with God (which does begin now) – the thief on the cross next to Jesus receives salvation even though he has done nothing in his life to deserve it, but he acknowledges who Jesus is and Jesus welcomes him to paradise. i don’t know if Gandhi turned to Jesus for forgiveness. But i don’t know that he didn’t. What i do know is that Gandhi loved Jesus and wasn’t so fond of His followers who didn’t seem to display the same kind of life that Jesus spoke about and lived. But i don’t know the state of Gandhi’s heart at the time of his death and whether or not he was in relationship with God and so for people to say he is definitely in hell seems like a foolish, immature, arrogant and presumptuous statement to make [unless you have some evidence i don’t]
and as i said it concerns me greatly that people claiming to be Christ followers are almost excited to point out that someone is going to hell – whether it’s Gandhi or homosexuals or abortion clinic owners or Saddam Hussein or Hitler, it doesn’t matter – hell is a place that was designed for the devil and his angels [Matthew 25.41] and it is always a complete tragedy when any person ends up there.
if it is true that Gandhi is headed towards hell, that should break us.
what is the greatest commandment? to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul and strength and to love your neighbour as yourself. Gandhi is my neighbour [Luke 10.25-37] and my attitude to him has to be one of love. and to anyone else, no matter who they are or what they have done.
maybe if we, as Jesus followers, had a better response to people heading towards hell, we would live differently while they are alive, and in our space, and living next door to us, and help direct them towards a Jesus-filled eternity which starts right now – a life that is symbolised by the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control) and by loving God and loving people and looking after those in need.
and be absolutely shattered every single time someone dies without coming into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.
[and spending less time involved in random online judgemental railings against what someone might be saying in some book we haven’t and probably aren’t going to read because of what we thort they might have said in their promotional video and book blurb]
![Just the Impromp2 of us... [with Megan Furniss]... we can make it if we try...](https://brettfish.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/img_7557_filtered.jpg?resize=40%2C40){kind=small}
Irresistibly Fish 
If a person lives their whole lives showing mercy, compassion and love, yet they somehow never hear of Jesus, would they go to Heaven?
Would a child molester, murderer/serial killer who has killed hundreds, yet gets jailed and decides to turn to Jesus go to Heaven?
Is there a difference between believing in Jesus and doing as he did? If so, it would make the murderer a believer but not necessarily a follower.
Would a good Muslim guy go to heaven? Muslims do believe in Jesus, but they regard Him as a prophet and not necessarily the son of God.
What would become of those who believe we are all sons and daughters of God, and acknowledge Jesus as a son as well?
Is it only important to believe at the time of your death? What about those who have believed yet have since turned away from the church due to various factors? Is death the only judgement, or is your whole life judged?
What if you believe in Jesus, and try to do as Jesus did, but you commit wars and evils in the name of the CHurch? The Spanish Inquisition, Crusades come to mind.
A good person surely no matter what their beliefs, will enter heaven?
Can we say who and who cannot be saved or enter Heaven? I think its too complicated for that. Only God can decide these things.
My last question is: How do you believe in Jesus? Say you want to believe, but you just cant quite believe completely. It looks like a good thing to believe and you try, but you cannot seem to believe it completely. We know that Jesus gave his life, suffered and all. There were many people in history who have suffered more. So why is Jesus more than them? People have been put on stakes even next to Jesus. People have been burnt to death and other terrible things for what they believed.
How do we know that what is in the Bible is true? Even if we want to believe, but possibly due to logic and science, we cannot completely as the Bible is not completely accurate as its been passed on, translated, lost, found throughout the centuries. Its a book which was put together by scribes and priests. Maybe they got it wrong.
I love this blog b, well said.
I remember a long time ago sitting around a table with a bunch of friends and a Baptist pastor remembering things from our childhood and I said “I remember the day Elvis died” and the pastor said something like “well we all know he’s in hell!” and I remember sitting back is stunned shock. I challenged him and said “really? how so? were you there when he died?”
no one knows someones heart only God does and he’s the only one that gets to judge.
As for Gandhi I’m not going to comment only to say that I think people will be shocked to find out who may be in heaven or hell…theres’ that verse that says and I paraphrase…you cast out demons in my name but I didn’t know you…
hey brett good thoughts. 🙂
i remember hearing a preacher, not sure who it was saying: “we’d be surprised who we see in heaven.”
I always hold to that. so true!
Hey Brett,
great post, and great points. I agree, it is an absolute tragedy that Christians get so worked up with statements that question the condemnation of someone they deem ungodly. Key point there: “who THEY deem…” Since when we were the judges? That’s the problem.
The truth is, we are in a worldwide revolution where people are rising up and realising what the Gospel is all about: God’s unconditional love and desperation to reconcile the world back to Himself! (2 Cor 5:19). The problem is; as people rise up to this realisation, there will also be those whose entrenched religious mindsets will cause them to respond in hatred and disgust. Just like the pharisees.
I would recommend Joseph Prince’s book “Destined to Reign” to anyone who feels as you do, Brett. It comes across as very “self-helpful” in the bookstores, but this is a real case of “don’t judge a book by its cover!” It is theologically rich and revolutionary in its clear presentation of The Gospel. It is life-changing.
May the Gospel revolution revealing God’s Goodness and Love exponentially increase and eventually change the world as we know it!
“I have never heard a reformed or evangelical say to a Universalist, “I hope you’re right.” There is something absolutely, painfully wrong with that.” – Matt Appling
it’s like you say, we seem to be more happy about being right (or at least thinking we are right) than caring towards the people we are condemning to hell…
Hell is not a nice place. Someone would really need to be evil beyond words, and twisted to get there.
I’m sure everyone is judged by their hearts and not by circumstance.
Paul, nice sentiment, but sadly not true according to the Bible which is the standard i live by p- check out this blog for clarification: https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/the-beep-beep-machine-revisited
I am not sure if you can base your whole life on a book that was written by men. I just read your beep machine post and do not agree with you. Each to his own.
Christianity should not be about fear. Jesus loves people who believe in Him or not.
The Bible is a book written by dudes in cloaks in the middle-ages. Even the pope at one stage went to wars. Politics and fear propagation were the order of the day back then – still is. The Bible’s accuracy is questionable. Oh but you must believe or die?
So according to the book, if someone lives a good life, is kind and maybe heard about Jesus a couple of times from a few crazy Christians but never bothered to go into it further – too busy working, putting food on the table, helping the poor at the local village, looking after strangers, they are then doomed to Hell and must burn forever in puts of fire? I think not.
Then on the other hand, the serial killer who murders, rapes, molests and kills is jailed then suddenly has nothing to do in his cell all day and takes up reading the Bible, askd forgiveness and believes in Jesus. He has nothing to lose so may as well give it a go right?He gets to go to Heaven?
Now if one dies, is there also not another chance to repent for sins? As a spirit/ghost/soul for instance?
I think you’re misinterpreting the Bible. Look at how Jesus lived, and how forgiving he is. People are not going to Hell that easily.
read Matthew 7 to see what Jesus thinks Paul (also M atthew 25 – section on sheep and goats) and some other chapters – doesn’t help if you don’t believe the Bible though so the argument won’t stand for you – but i can argue on what the Bible says and Jesus is very explicit that some people won’t make it – in fact He says it is the wide path that leads to hell so the minority of people are going to end up with Him – you simplify it very much when you give the two examples you do – it’s not a case of “oh i don’t have anything to do what do i have to lose?” because God knows the hearts and if it is not a genuine turning to God because of conviction of sin then the person won’t be saved – what Jesus is also explicit about towards the end of Matthew 7 is that many people who think they have made it (because of what they have done) will be left outside because of lack of relationship with Jesus [Jesus’s judgement is “I never knew you”] and so relationship with God and a life that displays that relationship are the key things… the question you will be asked when you stand in front of God one day in judgement (and you will, as will i) is ‘do you have forgiveness of sin as a result of accepting what My Son did on the cross for you?’ and if not then your end is not pretty…
but this thing is also not just about eternal life one day – it begins now and needs to manifest in how we live and our relationships with people and how we treat those in need and those who are unloved – the kingdom of God is already happening and if you are anti it now then it would probably be hell for you to have to live in it for eternity anyways…
wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only few find it.
nothing to do with hell or eternal life
“and be absolutely shattered every single time someone dies without coming into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. ”
I’ve been on the ‘against Rob’ team for this very reason. If someone holds to universalism they may be under the impression that they are going to heaven when they are not. I’m not trying to get people into hell. I just really don’t want people having an understanding of salvation that is incomplete. Ie maybe God does not require repentance and turning from sin. it would be terrible if people died, stood before God and then find out that the ‘goal posts’ have been moved. Your last link explains these ‘goal posts’ well.
(sorry to continue this for so long, but not all Christians in the against camp have the motives you outlined)
oh and Brett thank you for your balanced views here, I do feel challenged
refreshing comments Jsmes thankx and completely agree with you [check the matthew 7 reference in my response to Paul above – a hardcore passage we should be careful to ignore] – i think it’s dangerous to align oneself to a pro or against rob team cos surely even for those who disagree strongly with what he is saying now, he has said and is saying some stuff of truth and so surely thessalonians 5.17 comes into play of test the spirits, stick with the good, discard the rubbish (paraphrase) but yes if someone is a teacher or public figure and they are confusing/mixing truth with untruth etc etc then there is definitely a place to say something – i just don’t think a lot of the stuff that has been said has been the most holy or helpful… our first call is to love Jesus and others and rob has been treated with a lot of lack of love by a lot (not all) of people which is surely as bad especially cos it’s so public and once more those outside the church are going “sho, i don’t want to be a part of that”… tough one…
thankx again.
Agreed.
That’s all.
I read this comment a while ago and got a bit perplexed.
“…he has said and is saying some stuff of truth and so surely thessalonians 5:17 comes into play of test the spirits, stick with the good, discard the rubbish”
My confusion came between what you said, and what Paul writes in Romans and Galatians.
“17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.” – [Romans 16:17-18]
“6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.” – [Galatians 1:6-10]
There seemed to be a disagreement between these two ideas, until I further explored the verse I think you were talking about.
“19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.” – [1 Thessalonians 5: 19-22]
Thessalonians is pretty clearly talking about prophecy, not teaching \ theology.
In terms of what we subscribe to as teaching, inspiration, doctrine, etc. it would be my understanding that we need to put aside, and turn away from whoever is teaching anything which cannot be tested as truth against the truth we already have.
thanx Cj, good points and you are right in terms of the passage i was referring to and also that that one specifically deals with prophecy, but i would suggest in light of the passages that you quoted that the principle is the same – we need to test and ascertain whether what rob bell is saying is “a different gospel” and if it is then we definitely need to adhere to what Paul preaches and have nothing to do with it – however the message still needs to be tested and the majority of people have seemingly thrown out rob bell’s message without even hearing it let alone testing it and so are perhaps guilty of a lot of the judging that Jesus speaks about in Matthew in the “do not” sense and need to perhaps wait until they can read the message and then holding it against scripture judge whether it is true or not and then respond after that. i think a lot of what rob bell is saying is, ‘is the stuff we hold to because we’ve always held to it actually the truth?’ – it isn’t truth just because we’ve always held to it, it is truth because it is truth (or isn’t) and we need to be searching the scriptures to see what God is really saying on these matters – i think the alternative is taking some very real and good questions and sticking our heads under the sand because we are scared the answers are not what we have always believed them to be and maybe want them to be…
I wasn’t specifically referring to Rob, but if we are to look specifically at the scenario of Rob Bell, I would suggest that people are far too concerned with arguing up an intellectual storm. The fact of the matter is that the response to any theological debate should come out of a genuine concern for our relationship and walk with God, as well as the influences that these situations and teachings may have on our fellow believers.
People have got very caught up in presuming all of the details regarding this new book, but the simple matter of fact is that we already have the definitive answers to what he is asking. The stuff Rob brings to question is the Gospel in itself, something we as a Christian body should be able to give answers to without even a second of doubt. We have all rejected God, and thus are all sinners deserving hell. The GOOD news is that through our acceptance of what Jesus did on the cross, we can be forgiven. It is not a matter of love winning; in the OT God destroyed the world in flood, he struck people down dead, civilization was headed to its own demise – but God is unchanging and thus we know he in the OT was a loving God. Only through the Gospel and Ministry of Jesus were we saved and was there victory. Enough about this silly book though.
I agree with you that there is some good and bad, even with my absolute favorite teachers. The difference is that the bad which comes across is not damning to the core doctrines of the Bible. Take Mark Driscoll for example – he is undoubtedly one of the most gifted theological teachers of our time, but, for example, he pushes the envelope of masculinity so far that it is sometimes not good. Fortunately that doesn’t take away from the core doctrine he teaches. We can do this same example for every teacher.
The problem comes in when you find yourself in this camp – Jimbob is a good man, who has presented many good teachings, who has impacted many people positively, and who has proposed many inspiring ideas; thus I am going to continue to be taught and inspired by him, even though he does have some core doctrinal faults. If we know there can be bad doctrine, we know that we are to turn aside from those who teach it, and we are able to identify bad doctrine in a teacher, then we need to, for the sake of our relationship and walk with God, turn away!
In terms of Rob Bell, I believe that long prior to this uproar about his new book, he stepped outside of doctrinal truth. There are already hundreds of teachers who have explained this, so I shall not go into it. And yes, I am talking about guys who have addressed the situation responsibly, our of a genuine concern, and in a way that is not disrespectful.
thankx again for the comments CJ, i think i agree wiht you with everything you saying except specifically where you are speaking on the rob bell stuff and i’m not saying that you are wrong, but that i have not seen/heard the core doctrinal faults you allude to and so yes if they are there there is definite need to speak into the situation (out of genuine non disrespectful concern as a lot of people haven’t and a lot of big name people which is sad) – i follow Jesus and any teacher that i enjoy or think has some good stuff i will test that stuff against scripture (realising that we all manage to interpret scripture in a variety of ways so that has to be carefully looked at as well – just look at pre-trib, post-trib, pre-destined, not pre-destined teaching where each side is absolutely convinced they have the only truth on the matter using the same passages except ending up with different ‘truths’) always and only hold to it if it is true – that’s where the leading of the Holy Spirit comes in as well… you say Mark Driscoll is undoubtably one of the most gifted theological teachers of our time – that is an opinion and i question the word ‘undoubtably’ because i imagine there are people strongly opposed to him as well and so you are viewing this all through your lens that says this guy is okay, that guy is not okay… at the end of the day i stand before God and need to be okay with the decisions i’ve made, the people i’ve listened to, those i’ve challenged to – this whole blog was dealing with how we deal with people even when they are wrong – that is the issue at hand as much as people have attempted to move it onto other things.
i would imagine for the most part we are probably on the same page unless you are making assumptions about me with your Jimbob paragraph because then those would not be true – if you are talking generally then fine…
Haha, no, I am talking about those who would be Jimbob fans in general to the situation described.
And yes, out of the guys who I enjoy getting teachings from, it is my opinion that Mark is one of the most amazing theological teachers, but even so he should be continually tested.
I think you are also spot on in terms of saying that in the end it boils down to the fact that we will be held accountable. I think we also need to keep in mind though, that leaders will also be held accountable for what they have taught and endorsed. The Rob Bell stuff I was referring is his liberal approach to the hermeneutics of scripture; Page 25 – 27 from Velvet Elvis are for me past the line of acceptable teaching (The whole virgin birth story, and the embracing of heterodoxy). No value getting into it now, further than to say I would much rather turn aside from a teaching sooner than later – that is my approach though.
I am at current trying to put together some writing looking at how we should approach things such as theological debates. Once done, I would appreciate your thoughts, as they have been good and challenging in your writings.
wow it is just nice to discuss/debate with someone who has a brain. i think as i said we are largely on the same page but i would imagine we would probly be able to end a conversation with agreeing to disagree whereas some of the people who comment here are just so narrow minded it becomes a big shout from their side and they don’t process any response or deal with the topic at hand and usually come in with some unrelated agenda topic and it gets really frustrating – but yeah would love to take a look at your stuff and comment if that will help – busy writing a book called ‘i kissed hating [the church] goodbye’ aimed specifically at Christians who have walked away from church frustrated/burnt/disillusioned and are trying to be christian-without-church which is clearly impossible and also those within the church to really try and investigate what God sees as church as opposed to some of the things we have made church be…
in terms of rob bell (and you’re right we can probly leave it now, just wanted to explain) i was not a big fan of him around Velvet Elvis time and when i knew he was linked with Brian Mclaren hearing some stuff from him i didn’t particularly dig or found concerning and didn’t particularly like Velvet Elvis which was very much flavour of the month here when it came out – but i read Sex God and really enjoyed it and it probly has one of the best explanations of the whole woman submission in marriage thing and then i’ve enjoyed all the Nooma’s i’ve watched (only a few) and his two big talks ‘everything is spiritual’ and ‘the God’s aren’t angry’ so it’s really been his later stuff that i’ve found a lot more interesting stuff in… and am now quite interested in the light of all this hoo-ha to see exactly what he is saying in this new book…
thankx Cj. i have heard lots about Driscoll but not yet read any of his stuff altho have intended to (books to read pile inhumanely big) – which would you suggest as a good first book to read for when i do get there?
Oh well, guess Hell is where the party is then hey. Seems like all the Christians can do anything, then just get forgiven and go to Heaven. What a cool religion. Doesn’t matter if you work hard, do good whatever – its Hell with you boy.
Jesus was here 2000 years ago they say. But Christianity is based on as Paul says, a book. How do we know its true or not?
If you believe in God, but not Jesus, then would you still go to Heaven? As in Moslems, Bhuddists, Krishna, etc.
Everything with Christians is Matthew this or James that or Ecclesiastics that. It is all about text in a book. I think people can follow Jesus, but He must give us new messages as the Bible needs a new edition now. Too many okes have written it. How can we believe anything in it?
My heart would like to believe also, but the Bible is the obstacle.
Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the Father (God) but through me. It’s all about Jesus. It’s all about getting to know Jesus. The Bible was given as an account of what happened in history. As an encouragement to those in the faith, as instruction, a way to live, a way to get to know Jesus, to get to know God, to get to know the Holy Spirit… to those who believe. Once you are in Christ and Christ is in you and he has given you the precious gift of the Holy Spirit, it is only then that life really happens. Life to the full, contentment, God’s power working through you. The very life of God in you. It is unbelievable. An incredible thing to experience. It is then that we ask, we seek, we knock and He starts to reveal, He starts to speak, He starts to have a relationship with us. You will never know or experience this unless you choose to believe. Simple faith. If He said it, take it to be true and go with it. It is AMAZING how God (when invited to do so) breaks through into your life and starts to work with you. Mold your heart, change your thoughts, change your perspertive on things. As you get to know Him, the things of this earth fade. After striving my whole life and reaching wordly “success” you start to realize what it means, “that everything apart from God is all meaningless”. It doesn’t really satisfy. Gold medals, high powered career with recognition, status, money, home, the car you want, wearing the right clothes and being in the right places, seen with the right people… It is all pathetic in comparison to what I have found through Jesus. I have experienced a inner peace, my very soul feeling whole, utter contement no matter what the circumstances. My life has changed totally. It has been some years, but as God has “spoken” to me, I obey, I make a change and move on. He has lead me to a beautiful place. I cannot thank Him enough for drawing me in and taking hold of my life.
How can you believe anything from the Bible? Just do it. See what happens… God is Sovereign and you don’t need to understand or try and work out how and why. Once you simply believe and take Him for His word, you will start a journey that is all encompassing, intriging and comparable to nothing else here on earth. That is if you are earnestly seeking and really do want to know God and all the things He has planned for you and your life. He knows your thoughts, your attitudes, your desires. He will meet you where you are at. I know this to be true because He has done it for me. Personal experience today in 2011. Not only what John, Matthew, Mark, Peter, Daniel, Ezekiel, Elijah experienced.
It’s not for anyone to convince you or influence you. You know in your heart what your true motives are and what you really want. All I know is that if you bow your knee and start to talk to God, start to read His word He will not dissappoint you. He will be the faithful God I know Him to be.
I pray Heavenly Father that you will reach down and draw this person to yourself. Thank you that in your word you promise that those who ask, receive… and those you seek, find. Those who knock your door will be opened. So we stand on this truth today and I declare this over this person whose heart will believe. Thank you that you are a good God, that you open your hand and satify the desire of every living thing.
Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and your dominion endures through all generations. You uphold all those who fall. You lift up all who are bowed down. Reveal yourself God. Remove the blindness and open his/her spiritual ears to hear you. To discern you. Oh Sovereign God have your way for your glory. May Jesus be glorified in this life as he/she believes and hungers and thrists after the things of you. Thank you Jesus that you made a way for all of us to approach the Father. That you spared us the wrath of God by receving the penalty that was for us. Holy Spirit I pray that the power that raised Jesus from the dead will flow into this person and be working through this individual as he/she surrenders to you…. acknowledges you.
I pray these things in that most beuatiful and powerful name that was given by God, Jesus Christ. The Holy One. May he be glorified now and forever. Amen.
have you actually read the bible Laurence or have you been turned off by peoples’ interpretation and use of it – i encourage you to grab a copy and read the book of John or Matthew in the new testament (second half) – both of those are the story of Jesus – which is just as relevant today as it ever was – the core message of the Bible is reconciliation with God and then it is loving God and loving people and then looking after those in need – that is completely as relevant today as it ever has been – so read the story of Jesus again with an open heart and ask God to reveal Himself to you while you are reading it and if you are genuine i believe He will… if you seek Him He will be found…
Wow! My heart just races inside when I read some of these comments. I don’t want to argue with people but just wanted to say that for Christians, the Bible is Gods Word! We cannot so easily neglect it, in fact, we cannot at all, not because we don’t want to or it’s been drilled in since kids, but because GOD (the God who created the UNIVERSE and everything in it) gave it to us. GOD…he actually decided to communicate with us. And it has an account of GOD, as Jesus Christ who gave up EVERYTHING to be like us, humans. And it’s kept record of what GOD has done since the beginning of the world! We can’t just get an updated version, this is it! This is what God has given to us. AH (it’s difficult putting my thoughts down). And we have good reason to believe it’s true. Apart from this ‘thing’ inside of us we like to call the Holy Spirit, there is so much hard evidence and proof to believe it. You should look into it if you’re interested. It’s not just a cold religion that places everything on a random book, but if you take the time to understand some stuff about it, it will blow your mind. 🙂
I have friends who have died and I don’t think they were believers. Will they go to Hell and I’ll never see them again? In all eternity I’ll never see them? Maybe I should also then go to Hell then I’ll see my friends again!
The Bible is outdated. Its been used as a tool for centuries to kill hundreds of millions of people.
God you either believe or you don’t. God is the life energy and love that runs through all of creation. It is the logic/truth, love and energy in all beings even plants.
People try to put God in a book but they fell short.
What you are saying Brett, is that all Jews and Muslims are going to Hell. All of those who never got around to reading a long drawn out book and going to boring church meetings are gonna have hot curry with the devil. Haha lighten up dude. God is a cool being and he will judge our hearts if they good.
Writing in a book is not going to send anyone to hell. Think with your heart and not with your intellect and don’t believe everything you read. Why would Jesus or God be so harsh and send good people to Hell?
I am really trying to get why you must accept Jesus etc.. And why you can’t just be good? Doesn’t make sense really. I can accept Jesus and all but just can’t get the passion you may feel. Why is that? Do I believe? I hope do and think I do, but do think that he’ll judge our hearts.
Not looking to argue but puzzling questions that I struggle with.
you ask some good questions matt. in answer to your bible statement i disagree though – the bible is as relevant today as it ever has been [with its central message of love God, love people, look after those in need] and it’s not been the bible that has been the problem but people using the bible (misquoting, misinterpreting or just plain using it as an excuse) to back the killing of millions of people (things like the crusades and apartheid may have been justified – in peoples eyes – by using the bible but they were not things that a proper reading and understanding of scripture could ever have commended) – thats like saying a car is evil because it ran over your friend [no, the drunk driver was evil for drinking and getting into the car, the car itself is not]
God isn’t made real if you believe in Him or not – He is either real or He isn’t – the belief is completely unrelated in terms of verifying that – and if God is real (as i believe He is) then you better have a good think on whether you are going to believe He is real or not and if He is real then you really should be responding to Him in the appropriate way (which is worship, love, obedience)
You ask why God would send good people to hell. let me ask you this, if there is a God and you turn your back on Him and say “stuff you God, I will do this my way” then does that make you good? Surely that by definition would make you evil and deserving of death because you have looked at God and then kicked dirt in His face… so really does make sense to really search the ‘is there a God?’ question and make really sure of your answer…
also another important thing to realise is that this thing is not about heaven and hell one day – Jesus spoke about the kingdom of God being here now (in part at least, one day it will be in full) which means there are times now on earth when the kingdom of God is present (when it looks like it would if Jesus was king – so when love is shown, when people are looked after, when grace is lived out etc) and that is what we are called to – something greater when we die for sure but life to the full now (which a lot of christians miss cos they get caught up in rules and religion) – Jesus spoke about coming to bring life in all its fullness and abundance, now, not only when we die – it really is about living the best you can here (for you and for others) and one day anticipating something even greater…
don’t stop questioning dude, if you seek God you will find Him. all of Him!
Hi Matt! I just wanted to make a few comments about your very valid questions.
Q – The Bible is outdated. It’s been used as a tool for centuries to kill hundreds of millions of people.
Me – The bible is primarily a message of hope. Loving others can never grow outdated. It is true and sad that it has been used as a tool to kill and control so many people throughout history, going against the very things it teaches.
Q – Why would Jesus or God be so harsh and send good people to Hell?
Me – I think you are asking the wrong questions. It’s not God’s desire that anyone should go to hell (2 Peter 3:9). Jesus came to save us from hell, not condemn us (John 3:17). However, most people reject his outreached arm. Each of us chooses his own destiny despite Gods pleas and offer of salvation. Remember Adam and Eve hid from God in the garden of Eden, he was not hiding from them (Genesis 3:10)!
Q – I am really trying to get why you must accept Jesus etc.. And why you can’t just be good?
Me – Some people are better than others, but no one is really good. Just like Adam and Eve, one day when we meet with an all power powerful, perfectly just, loving and holy God. Our inner thoughts and all our deeds will shame us into fleeing from him. God never killed his son to satisfy his wrath, that thinking has been adopted from early pagan religions (throwing your children into volcanoes to appease the gods type stuff). Jesus went to the cross with the Fathers help (2 Corinthians 5:19) to save us from our sin and the power it had over us, as well as to cover our shame.
As for our hearts, the bible teaches that the heart is deceitful and incurable (Jeremiah 17:9), but God also promises those who trust in Christ a new heart which no longer serves self, but lives in love (Ezekial 11:19). I’m not trying to argue my points over yours, but I do hope my comments show a different side of the picture and help you to understand God a little better.
Maybe just read the Gospils. Jesus said he is on everything even wood from a braai. Do you right. There is spirit in beer the type that gets you lekker happy and also Jesus. Even Christians don’t believe completely because if they did they would be like Jesus, no house, just wear sheets as robes and sandals. So don’t worry about believing or not, as long as you trying to understand and believe. I believe snd sometimes not, but mostly I do and Jesus gives me a klap when I misbehave. Usually if I drink in the week then on the work day I feel like I’ve been hit by a pan. I have actually been hit so I know.
So try believe and you wil be just as the rest of us. We al crazy humans. Like that song “what if God was one of us”. I read the gospels but also find the rest of the old testament bloody boring and vol of violence.
But Brett is cool guy and the Bb guy above is quite dramatic but also seems okay.
you a funny guy, brits… we should do that beer slash hunters gold…
I deserve hell.
If you knew the thoughts I think, and the things I do when I think no-one sees -I deserve hell. There are things so dark that if you knew, you would feel sick.
Even the “good” I do is tainted by a need for recognition, pride and what I can get out of it.
If you could look under the veneer that I show to everyone – you would agree – I deserve hell.
Someone once said that “in the heart of every man, is the potential for every kind of evil”, and if anyone on this planet had to stand back and really (and I mean really) look at what they do, they would realise that they too deserve hell. Standing in front of a unbiased, perfect Judge and having a true look at what an absolute mess we make of this life we’ve been given – everyone will eventually admit that they deserve hell – and I don’t care who you are, Mother Theresa, Billy Graham or Gandhi — we all deserve hell.
We’re asking the wrong question.
Its not “why does God send some people to hell and not others?”
The real question, is why, for Christ’s sake, does he not condemn us all?
you hit it on the head there Dazzle, we all deserve hell, that’s the point and that’s why whether you told one lie or you were a serial killer, in one sense you are in the same boat – any and all sin (falling short of the glory and rightness and righteousness of God) condems us to hell (because God being light and pure and holy cannot give favour to sin)…
bugt the answer to your last question is simple – For God so loved… it says elsewhere in Scripture that love covers a multitude of sin – because God loved us UNDESERVEDLY (not cos of anything we ever did or said or sacrificed or were or ever will be) He made a way for us, undeserving creatures that we are.
and for that, how can we not respond with love and grace and lives lived for the glory and worship of God and redemption of His creation – that is the point. all of it!
yes and no.
For God so loved… the World…
If Love were enough, then no-one would go to hell. His Love does not turn a “blind eye” to the rapes and murders that happen daily in this country. He is a comfort to the victims, but as a Perfect Judge, he demands justice, and punishment on the wicked.
And who are the wicked? – I am the wicked. We all are.
The truth is that the punishment I deserve, was taken and done and dusted by Jesus Christ. The punishment that should have brought me death and hell, brought death and hell to Jesus.
And that’s not fair, but that’s the beauty of grace.
So God offers us this free exchange – My punishment to be accounted for by Jesus’ death. The trick is that I need to exchange this mess of a life that I’ve created, with me as boss, for the one he offers, with Him as boss.
It’s a difficult choice – but its the best one I ever made.
for those of you who weren’t around when i posted it go and check out https://brettfish.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/he-spoke-i-ran-stories-from-a-muslim-part-i and the rest of the parts of that blog (i think they all link to the next one) especially those of you asking what happens to muslims and others who don’t believe – this is the true testimony encounter of a hardcore committed muslim who had a face to face encounter with Jesus – there is a video link to his story on video as well if you want to hear him speak it – exciting stuff which proves my God cares for everyone…
hm Dazzle it felt like you were arguing with me and then i read your comment and you weren’t but yes on writing it all out a bit more fully and including the judge thing cos that is perfect – God is both perfect Love and perfect Justice and the two somehow manage to not contradict each other – His perfect Love means He desires no one should perish but His perfect Justice insists that sin must be paid for but His perfect Love sends Jesus to pay the punishment thus taking our place… both together hand in hand, undeserved and very much putting my life in the hands of one who can run it so much better, well said.
What about the people who have died, such as what Matt was saying? Will we ever see them again? Are they in Hell now if they did not believe? Will it be possible to ever see them again in Heaven? Or do we need to be sinful so that we go to Hell and see them again?
Yes, what if you have a boyfriend or girlfriend who is a non believer. They die. Then what? You can only see them again in the spirit if you go to Hell?
a bunch of people have been asking a very good and very difficult question in terms of “are you saying so-and-so goes to hell?” – altho that is a great question, that is not the point of this blog – i believe the answer has been set out very directly in the Bible [read in order Romans 3.23-24, Romans 6.23, John 3.16, John 14.6 and 1 John 1.9] and that is not up for debate here – also it is not a case of what i am saying, but what God states in His word…
the point i am trying to make here is that whenever anyone (whether we see them as good or bad or deserving or not) makes decisions or lack thereof that leads them on a path to hell then as a Christ follower that should break our hearts and we should never get excited or self-righteous or satisfied that anyone ever ends up there… and the important recognition that hell was created for the devil and his angels – God does state that there is enuff evidence in creation and beyond for everyone to make an informed decision in believing in Him and we reap the fruit of the choices we make…
the question is, have you chosen to follow Jesus? Life to the full (both here, now, and afterwards) Best decision i ever made.
It seems the answer then is NO, they’ll all go to Hell.
So we’ll never see them on Earth or in Heaven again forever?
Is Christianity just about verses in the Bible. Don’t you get answers from prayer?
They made a new testament, maybe its time for Jesus to come back and clarify some things then.
Ya a beer will go down nicely. These are hard questions to answer. Maybe we are given a chance after we die as we are spirits really with bodies in this world. The Bible says we must follow Jesus so Brett is quoting this. so in this life we must make up our minds and stop complaining. Just believe and check out how it goes. That’s what is written. I am a believer in Jesus. I do also argue with him about things and think maybe he is hard of hearing or too busy with other more impotent duties. But I’m still here and getting by so he has my back there.
But if someone dies without believing, it is risky business as you could be spending time with the devil. But God knows your spirit and loves us so maybe also your love for the person who died will count in their favor and they go to heaven and become street sweepers in heaven for a time. But as I say risky business to die not believing. It is like the Bible is a map and you throw it away and go into the Karoo. You can get lost easy and end up at a kroeg with bad tasting beer. With a map you can end up at a good brewery. I don’t know about guys that prefer wine maybe they end up at greenpoint or seapoint.
If you take the time to question here then you starting to believe. Too much for a guy like me to understand but just ask Jesus and he will give you answers.
Life is a short amount of time. Maybe these friends were angels and they in heaven now. With Jesus we can expect this type of thing. He talks with paribles and keeps it simple so can all understand. Everything is fair with God in the end. People won’t go to hell easy and will have lots of chance. There is a lot of angels on earth to help us as well. Mine are a bit overworked and sometimes they meet me after a heavy night of drinking and lead me home safe. But they don’t stop a bad hangover. People are crazy things and we lucky God doesn’t just eraser us and restart it all. We responsible for each other as well as ourselves to get us all to Heaven. So stop complaining and believe. Stop chasing materials and live modest and talk to Jesus more. If you don’t like reading then pray about it or get a DVD on Jesus life. But not the passion as it is mostly whippings and blood. It does show what terrible things he had to go through because we all so stubborn and love sin so much. Some good DVD series with teachings for the lazy reader.
Brits, you’re a peach! Well said.
interesting, guys (any gals out there btw?),Jesus is the dude, the One Way, so let’s follow him and bring our mates too. Don’t know about people who have gone before (shall not the God of all the earth do right?), but we have to not waste time but get the message out! blessings
Sorry only just read this Brett. It was 2011, so perhaps we’ve all changed but, to be blunt…
…IF the narrow road/wide road thing is about God creating people out of nothing, then “saving” a minority of them, and condemning the rest to some sort of punishment, eternal or otherwise for getting it wrong in some way or another…a way they were born into without choice…well, I would totally reject that God. Pretty crap God. OK, he’d be sending me to hell, but the other option would be like siding with Hitler. Except Hitler was a lot more the victim of his circumstances. OK, I’m human. Gun to my head…jump/get pushed into the lake of fire or believe…not just in me, but what I stand for…well, I could pretend, but I would have thought, in any pure sense, that would be a bad thing.
Is God such an insecure cruel dude that would MAKE people, KNOW that most of them (The Wide Boys and Girls) will fail (presumably because He didn’t make them well enough) and still call that Love. It’s not just a narrow way. It’s a hopelessly cruel, heartless, loveless, authoritarian, dictatorial way. And IF that is what God is like, then YEP, we should all be very scared.
Maybe that’s what it is like. In which case I will still try to love myself, my family and friends, and the people I meet as well as I can. I want this world to be better when I leave than when I arrived.
But the truth will set us all free. Sometimes you’ve just got to say no. Even, or in these circumstances, especially, to God.
hm, i hear what you’re saying and when you put it like that then it does sound kind of insane. but maybe that comes with trying to understand supernatural things with natural minds. IF we go with a premise that there is a God and that He created the Universe in a breath or a word or a ten million year period [depending on your particular bent] then we HAVE to believe He is too big for us to understand, we have to. Else we are the insane ones. And that is what trips us up for sure in a me-centered universe, the idea that something or someOne is bigger than me.
so if i can’t fully understand, then i have to just do the best with what i’ve got and for you that leads to what you just said and for me it leads to me believing that it is quite obvious that there is something bigger than us in the Universe – believing in Creator over random occurance – and then deciding what that means. Of all the ways and stories shown to me, i am still convinced that the Jesus one make the most sense and it also does resonate with something inside of me and so definitely elements of faith mixed with belief. and so then understanding is replaced [or accompanied] with trust.
if i invite you to a dinner at my house along with 9 other people and only five of you choose to eat, have i been a bad host? people going to hell because they choose to is very different to people going to hell because God chooses them to. even if He knew [by virtue of being in the future] that it was going to happen- and this is where the Back to the Future loop comes in – maybe He only knows it is going to happen because He is in the future and it has happened, not necessarily He knew about it when He was creating people and it hadn’t happened yet? i don’t know, like i said, there is a lot i don’t know and i can only deal with what i do know and believe.
can God create a rock heavy enough so God can’t lift it? If so He can’t be God because He can’t lift a rock. If not He can’t be God because there is something impossible for Him. There are many scenarios we can come up with like that when we try to define a supernatural all-powerful being and understand it with natural not-all-powerful brains.
i certainly don’t know the answers to all these questions. but i do absolutely believe that the Jesus preached and lived was is best – no doubts on that one – on how the church has continually gotten it wrong a lot, not many doubts on that either… but love God, love people, love your enemy, look after the least of these and all of that – i can completely give my life to that stuff. and if the whole sin, Jesus dying story is true then me living my life for Him in response [not to avoid a lake of fire] becomes a natural thing to do – especially again when the biggest law is love. that is so beautiful and enticing and wonderfully great and because it is, then i want everyone else to be doing it as well. and IF God/Jesus is that God then that in itself is a cause for great trust and belief that He is not a hateful God creating people for the purpose of burning them – it has to be much bigger than that. but to also realise and respect that if people choose themselves over God then they have chosen whatever their future is.