Another week, another ‘The Weekly Mash [and Peace!] – see what’s been happening this week on the other side of my blog garage…
Wednesday saw some more cartoons with a simple yet powerful contrasting of Together vs. Not Together
Tag Archive: Relationships
And now a glimpse into the story of Steve and Helene from Helene’s side:
I will start with the here and now – Steve and I have been married two and a half years and together six years. I feel very blessed and fulfilled by our physical intimacy, and am looking for many years of exploring what that will look like in the various seasons that await us. Knowing where the other comes from with respect to sexual history makes us want to honor the other, and bring healing and peace and respect to the other in a way that no one else can. With that comes a humbling responsibility and great power, but also a deep desire to bless the other and receive the joy of sex that God intended for us to experience together. I am sure it will not always be like it is now – sometimes it will be better (whatever that will look like, I don’t know yet) and sometimes it will be worse, but I have a deep trust that this is something we both want to prioritize because we have been uniquely placed by God in a position to offer that to the other. I would say that right now, our biggest challenge is that we often feel like life gets in the way of us making time to be intimate as often as we’d like. Thankfully we are quick to notice it and since we don’t have children and have a fair degree of freedom in our activities, we plan impromptu time in bed or put a hold on our calendar for a romantic evening on short notice to remedy the situation. Life is good.
But it wasn’t always like this. What I had to bring to the table on our wedding night was a soul and body so disconnected by a misguided sexual past that I thought I would never be able to fulfill my role in sharing wonderful physical intimacy with my husband. And it really broke my heart, because I felt that Steve had spent so many years (mostly) holding back from physical intimacy until he found someone to marry, while I was out carousing with any guy who wanted to lay a hand on me, and now all that brokenness made me unable to give something to Steve that he so rightfully deserved. I felt shame and disappointment and guilt. I felt unworthy and dirty. And more than anything, I felt scared to give him access to my body and my soul together as one – which is something I’d never done with anyone.
You see, my body hadn’t always been mine. My childhood, despite my wonderful parents’ love and care, was filled with physical attacks from a violent brother as well as the unwanted advances of a male babysitter before I even reached puberty. At a young age I learned that my body was something people could use to hurt me. I learned that those closest to me were the ones who would hurt me. So I simply dissociated my soul from my body – if people wanted to use my body for evil that’s fine, I could keep it at arm’s length and not be affected by it. In teenage years I became very promiscuous – which seems counterintuitive but I learned later that it is a very common way for survivors of childhood sexual abuse or violence to cope with a feeling of powerlessness. It was as though I had to affirm that my body didn’t matter, therefore what happened to me as a child didn’t matter. What it did however, was widen the chasm between how I related to my body and how I related to my soul – I didn’t understand how the two could coexist together as a whole. It also taught me that you can have countless partners but that you never have to trust anyone, especially the ones you become closest to. So in a weird way sex became a tool to keep people at a distance, not bring them closer. I had no concept of what it could mean to have sex with someone and respect them, or be respected for that matter. By the time I entered my thirties I had left that wildly promiscuous past behind, perhaps more as a result of finding fewer people willing to engage in the practice because of my age, or perhaps because unbeknownst to me I was growing up a little. Then Steve entered the scene. We started dating and he told me about not wanting to have sex before marriage. I thought “well heck, I’ve never tried THAT before!” Since nothing else had worked to that point with respect to finding eternal love, I was willing to give it a shot. Not only was I attracted to Steve in the conventional way at the onset of dating, but I was also very intrigued by the idea that someone could value a relationship with me that wasn’t based on the physical. In hindsight it is an incredible story of redemption that the Lord would have put Steve on my path, because out of that relationship came a deep reconciliation between my body and my soul, and a feeling of wholeness has emerged that I had never thought possible.
It was not easy at first though. I didn’t know how to be sexual and at the same time stay engaged emotionally and spiritually with him. I knew that I could not treat this incredible person the way I had treated sexual partners in the past – by using him as an object. At the same time, I did not know how to stay connected with him during physical intimacy because I had trained my soul to just go hide somewhere deep inside whenever I was naked with somebody and to leave my empty shell of a body for the person to use as they saw fit. At that point, we’d just gotten married and I wanted desperately to give him a wonderful sexual experience, but it all came crashing down on me. All those years of protecting myself had essentially disabled me from knowing how to let somebody in, body and soul, into my life. So in the first few weeks/months, I remember letting “it” happen but feeling pain and incredible sadness that I couldn’t connect with Steve in that way. I felt a lot of rage and guilt that all these years I had been able to have “great sex (whatever that means!)” with strangers and now with the one person whom I loved and trust, I couldn’t do it. But that was actually a blessing, because what was happening was that for the first time in my life I cared enough about someone that I did not want to use him and let him use me. I wanted to experience what God intended for us to experience, but I didn’t know how. I felt too broken to have anything to offer. I was at an impasse, so I went to see a counselor who helped me sort out all these feelings I was having. She gave me and Steve tools for overcoming this initial difficulty in our intimacy. She gently encouraged me to start trusting Steve in a way that I had never trusted anyone before. At first, I sometimes had to make him stop in the middle of the act because I couldn’t stay with it emotionally and I did not want to let myself dissociate from my body. It was better to make the whole thing stop than to let myself go back to that secret place inside and leave my empty shell in bed with Steve. It was awkward of course, and I am forever grateful that Steve gave me the space and unconditional love to work through all these emotions – all the while he was experiencing his own disappointment that sex with me wasn’t quite the amazing and exciting experience he had hoped it would be. What made the difference was that I knew he trusted me and trusted that I was committed to getting past this and having a wonderful physical connection with him down the road. He never pressured me, something for which I am, again, so grateful to him. Within that sacred, safe place I began to heal.
After about a year, things started getting better. I found myself looking forward to sharing intimate time with Steve whereas before I had to talk myself into it a little. I started trusting him, trusting my body to be a source of joy and pleasure and not a source of pain, trusting that it is possible to have someone touch me with respect, with love, with care. And I feel so incredibly grateful when I find myself wishing we spent more time in bed together now–after my journey it is such a blessing to find myself in such a mundane, simple predicament: simply to wish for more intimate time with my husband. More importantly, all the time Steve and I spent not being fulfilled sexually has created a relationship that is based on trust and mutual respect and we have learned to find other ways to feel valued and loved. I look forward to and love the times that we spend physically intertwined together, but I also look forward to and love the times when we just sit and talk about what we’ve been reading and thinking about, cook together, kayak together or serve others together. We were able to develop an incredibly supportive and challenging relationship even as we were struggling with relating to one another sexually, which had two pretty awesome outcomes: one, we appreciate the lightness and depth of our physical intimacy even more because we worked hard for it, and two, we don’t worry about how it would affect our relationship if for some reason (sickness, distance,…) we couldn’t show our love physically to one another. We know so many ways to show and receive love and to feel connected to one another, one of which happens to be sex. It’s a wonderful gift, but not the “end all be all” of marriage in my opinion.
Val and I met Steve during our time at the Simple Way and although we have spent a really short amount of live time together, he has quickly slotted into my folder of ‘Favourite people.’ Steve is someone who really strives to live out the Good News of Jesus practically and is an absolute inspiration. He jumped at the chance to share his story here and I hope that it will encourage and challenge many of you as it has me… On his second visit to the Simple Way we got to meet his lovely wife, Helene. Here is a glimpse into their story from Steve’s point of view:
My pastor has a saying: “Sometimes you have to let a dream die before God will resurrect it.”
I became a Christian shortly before my 19th birthday. Being somewhat of a high-school nerd I had still – had my virginity intact without much threat to it as I entered my college years. Truth be told when I became a Christian it was mainly because I wanted to date a girl who would not date non-Christians — we were best friends and there always seemed to be the ambiguous friends-more-than-friends paradigm/angst to our relationship. Of course, it was me who usually had the more romantic interest in her. Needless to say that romantic part of our relationship never worked out with any longevity, but being close Christian friends we made a covenant with each other that we would remain virgins until we found the person that we would spend the rest of our lives with. And we would wait until we married that person. She held up her end of the covenant while I did not. I was close, but I blew it. Of course she did get married in her early 20s, while I would wait until I was nearly 40 to have God give me the person that I will spend the rest of my life with.
Finding the woman that I would marry was the number one goal of my twenties. It was frustrating to see my male friends that were not holding to my standards of sexual morality fall in love, and get married. I would pray and ask God, “My friends are sleeping around and getting rewarded with wives. You know this is the desire of my heart, I am not sleeping around with anyone – Okay I did buy that Penthouse magazine, but geez I threw it away the same night I bought it and even went back to the store clerk and confessed that purchasing it was wrong—so when do I get rewarded with the woman that I get to spend the rest of my life with?”
By the time I was 29 I had had it! Most of my guy friends were married and my closest friend who I was living with had just gotten engaged to a possessive and jealous woman and I had to move out and our friendship eroded quickly. In the process of this, I began dating a non-Christian woman who I was up front with about waiting until marriage before having sex. She was fine with this agreement. But my anger and resentment toward God for not giving me what I deserved with my chaste lifestyle boiled over. I still remember the night that I had sex for the first time. I remember my girlfriend honoring me – three times she said “You don’t need to do this if you don’t want to. Are you sure?” I was sure! It was obvious that God was not for me and if God was not for me, than I was not for God.
I had heard stories about how if you have sex before marriage you will wake up feeling guilty the next day. This was not the case for me at all — I woke up feeling great, in control, and like a man! However, our relationship would begin to fall apart soon after this decision. Despite me being the initiator of sex, I gradually began to lose respect for her and I think that was the primary factor that led to me breaking off the relationship.
It would be two years before I would have another relationship at the age of 31. Christina* was a divorcee, 6 years older than me, a recovering alcoholic, but a Christian. We both agreed to wait until marriage to have sex. We also agreed that we would date for at least a year. While we never had intercourse, I would not exactly say that were not sexual. Regardless, we were dating for 11 months and I was beginning to think about buying a ring when she abruptly cut the relationship off. I was devastated—It was one of the most difficult times in my life — God had again shown that he is not for me.
Somehow, I took to heart one of the things that Christina told me when she broke up with me. If you want to understand me you should attend Al-anon — a twelve step program for families and friends of alcoholics. I don’t know why I would take the advice of the woman that just broke my heart but I did. Al-anon literally saved my life. It was in the Al-anon meetings that I began to realize how egocentric I was! For a solid year I was at Al-non twice a week and on bad weeks more! One of the biggest turning points was on Good Friday — I attended a meeting that I did not normally attend because it was just a really hard week for me. I remember gushing tears after that meeting and going up to Val, who was always knitting through the meetings, and flat out told her, “I am unlovable!” She immediately gave me a hug and reassured me saying, “You are totally lovable.” She meant those words and somewhere inside of me I knew she was right.
Things did not get instantly better after that night but that was the turning point. I began the process of realizing God is for me — a process that continues today. Somehow, it occurred to me that maybe I was not meant to get married. I decided for the first time in my life that I would trust God with this. If I was meant to be married God will make it happen in his timing, but I was really willing to accept that maybe I might be called to be single for the rest of my life. That latter scenario was a bit hard to swallow but I was okay with it. I was okay with it until gradually I started to really enjoy it.
I would not go on another date for more than six years! I had gotten used to single life and I was loving absolutely every minute of it! And then bam! I asked a woman that I barely knew if she would like to share gas money to a river festival. This was the time when gas was more than $4.00 a gallon, I was driving a gas-guzzling SUV and the festival was three hours away! We were both avid whitewater kayakers and would be able to hang out with our respective friends once at the festival. Helene was a “safe” option — I was sure of it!
God had other plans! It did not take long for us to realize on the ride up that there was a connection between us. We talked the entire way without either one dominating the conversation at any point. I remember being excited and confused at the same time. Needless to say, the river festival was the catalyst to us beginning a relationship. The big problem for me with this though, was that Helene was an atheist, had a promiscuous past and had also recently dated a good friend of mine. Again, I laid out the boundaries of no premarital sex and was shocked to find another non-Christian agreeable to this.
I was committed to loving Helene for who she was and not for what she believed. I was very hands off with respect to sharing my faith with her. I was open to sharing what I believed and why I believed what I believed and would recommend books that had influenced me — mainly so that she could better understand me. Regardless, God began to enter her life.
I happened to be what is commonly termed as “dechurched” at this time. Al-anon was still serving that purpose for me at the time, albeit more like 2 times a month. Helene heard about an Alpha group at National Community Church (NCC) in Washington, DC and started attending. Before long she was going to services and then this atheist girlfriend started asking her Christian boyfriend why he did not go to church — weird how God works sometimes! God uses atheists to get Christians into church — NCC is still our church home today!
It was not long before our relationship would fall into the trap of what I call the “Bill Clinton” school of sexual abstinence. Everything but intercourse is not waiting until marriage, but it would take us a while until we realized this. We dated a little less than two years before we got engaged and moved in together not long after. About 8 months before our wedding we went through a six week prepare group with our church for engaged couples. The group leaders are empty-nesters and they are awesome and they do a great job with the group! However, it would be the week after the group ended that I would pick up Lauren Winter’s book, ‘Real Sex,’ off of my wife’s bookshelf. I will not go into details about the book other than to say that it was the kick in the butt that I needed and that it is a great read for dating couples! I read the book in a few days and immediately gave it to Helene and said, “You need to read this and then we need to talk.”
We agreed that waiting until marriage to have sex is not about doing everything but intercourse. We were cheapening what it means to honor God with how we were approaching our physical relationship. We set up an appointment with the leader of the prepare group and he let us have it. At that meeting, we agreed that I would move into the spare bedroom starting that night. The only problem was the Helene’s mom was visiting and staying in the guest room at the time. So instead we agreed that I would sleep in our bedroom but on the floor on a camping pad until Helene’s mom’s visit was over. We very specifically agreed on body parts that were off limits to the other until we said “I do.” We also wrote confession letters to each other that we would burn together as well after reading them aloud to each other.
The decision to do these things was paramount for the health of our relationship. Showing love physically is easy. It can be a challenge to show love in other ways. Helene and I had to be creative. Notes around the house—putting them in sneaky places where one would least expect it was one thing we did. Reading Gary Chapman’s Five Love Languages and learning what those are for each other was also good for us. Moreover, the decision to step away from the physical aspect of our relationship was a step of faith in trusting that God knows what is best for us. Instead of seeing God as wanting to take away the fun things in our life–in this case sex—I decided to go all in (no pun intended) with trusting Him!
I will admit that it was not always easy but it was certainly amazing! I gained more respect for Helene. I gained more respect for myself. It was a catalyst for me to allow God deeper into my life. I also learned how to make Helene feel loved beyond the scope of just being sexual. And I felt redeemed — even all the mess that Helene and I created with keeping God at arms-length in our premarital sex life — God was able to redeem it once we invited Him in!
God had truly resurrected the dream that I had let die!
[*Name Changed to protect the innocent]
[To follow Steve's musings in his regular blog 'Steve G's Eclectic World', click here]
Wow! So this one should get people clicking on it. It may seem like a bit of an unusual topic to list under ‘Taboo Topics’ which after all was a series designed with the aim of talking about some of the issues that are very prevalent in the world, but that the church [and often even the outside-of-the-church world] rarely speaks about, or into. But think about it for a second. Preaching about sex in church? In any context other than the ‘Thou shalt not!’ of pre-marital sex… I certainly can’t remember the last time i heard a good preach on how to have good sex in marriage.
I know what a lot of you might be thinking – of course not, how inappropriate would that be, that is something for a counselling sesssion… or something like that.
It certainly is something for somewhere. And if the majority of married people are not receiving any form of counselling, then chances are it is not being spoken about. At all. Does the bible have anything to say about sex? Absolutely, and it definitely has a lot to say about how we should be treating each other.
So I wanted to get the ball rolling and so i sent out a general email to a bunch of my married friends, and Steve and Helene responded almost immediately and having read their stories i am so excited to be able to share them with you as there is so much Love and Grace and Redemption within them, that I really believe these are going to change lives and hopefully share a bit of an ‘I get it’ with some of you who may have felt as if you are the only one who understands what you’ve been through. While each of our stories is different, sometimes it just takes hearing the story of someone who has gone through something similiar, to be able to feel a little bit encouraged and have a lot more hope that this can turn out alright…
I should say before we begin that I really do believe that marriage is the place God created for a man and a woman in a committed relationship to have sex in. That is how God designed it to be. Although at the same time, it is important to acknowledge that we do live in a broken world and we live with a lot of that brokenness in us {which God is bringing to redemption], and so it doesn’t always end up that that is where sex happens. Fortunately we have a gracious and loving God who is able to enter into our stories where we have messed them up…
This was the original blog post and two responses that invited the whole focus on this topic – click here to read ‘How much Sex in Marriage?’
Click here to read the story of Steve Graybill and his wife Helene Scalliet
Click here to read the story of Helene Scalliet and her husband Steve Graybill
the other day i posted an answer to a ‘how much sex in marriage?’ question that someone left after a ‘Singleness’ blog post and it got a whole lot of attention… realising that Sex in Marriage is a bit of a Taboo Topic that doesn’t get much attention, this felt like a healthy conversation to continue and so i had an online chat with Val about some of the stuff that came up in the comments section, so we could share it with you:
[Brett]: Hey Val, so when you read through the comments section on the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ blog, there were one or two things that got your back up. What would you say was the biggest of those that caused a reaction in you?
[Valerie]: Hi B. I think for the most part I appreciated the comments and agree that sex (or at least one or both partner’s interaction with it) can be an indicator of deeper issues in a marriage. I think my biggest issue was the implied suggestion that a lack or reduction of sex is indicative of marital problems. This comment in particular got me: “I think that if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow, however if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship, sex will illustrate that.”
[Brett]: Hm, interesting. I agree that if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship then sex is likely to be one of the places where that will be picked up. But I imagine you are more hesitant about the idea that if things are good in a relationship that sex will naturally follow? Is that right or what exactly is it about that statement [in the context of what you've said about problems with sex can be an indicator of deeper issues within a marriage] that you are taking issue to?
[Valerie]: I think what I heard some folk say is that a lack of sex is ALWAYS an indication of deeper issues and marital “rot”. I don’t like the idea that the natural result of happiness, comfortability and security is SEX! The implication being that sex is directly correlated with happiness, comfortability, security and general health of a marriage (the more you’re having the better it is; the less you’re having the more “in danger” you are.) My concern here is that this plays strongly into the dominant role sex plays in our culture, both within the church and without.
For many churches, the prime focus on relationships before marriage is sex. Don’t have it!
And the prime focus on relationships after marriage is sex. Have it!
So sex dominates our understandings of relationships, marriage, love, mutuality, fulfillment, sin and right living, and health – in the church. Meanwhile, outside the doors, sex dominates too. We have a culture driven by sex and sexuality – it pervades our music, movies, the market place, books, magazines, and is placed at the forefront of relationships.
I feel uncomfortable with this preoccupation with sex both in and out the church, both before and after marriage. is all
[Brett]: I hear you on that and definitely agree with you. The church could definitely improve their stance on sex in terms of the way it is presented and spoken about [and not spoken about]. Ultimately if the church is not speaking about sex, then we have to turn to the other voices on it which will primarily be the media and Hollywood, not great proponents of healthy attractive sexuality.
Karen seemed to have a similar opinion to you on sex not being at the centre of marriage, but also spoke of how it can be a good indicator if something is not healthy.
“Many counsellors and leaders in churches that I know, when helping couples will ask what the sexual relationship is like to get an indication of the health of the marriage. So although it is not the be all and end all and both parties should be happy with the amount of sex that happens in the marriage, we have to make sure our marriages are healthy, that our relationship with God is healthy so that we lack nothing, that He fulfills our needs and makes us happy, so that we don’t expect our spouses to make us happy.”
Is that something you would agree with? That a good marriage is not defined on how much or little sex you are having [other commenters mentioned things like emotional issues, abuse in the past and other aspects which can affect your sex] but that it might be a warning sign, a smoke alarm if you will, to the possibility of there being a fire needing to be taken care of?
[Valerie]: In short, I don’t think the strength or health of a marriage should be defined on how much or little sex is happening. But, if one or both parties are finding the amount of sex (shall we leave the quality to the side for now?) an issue, which I believe is where the first blog post started, then by all means that needs to be addressed. And I think the first blog did that well – in essence you flipped it on it’s head from “how much am I entitled to” to the deeper issues that could, and often do, underlie a question like that. The back-story if you like.
My main concern is that we don’t perpetuate the myth that sex is the pinnacle of a relationship. It’s what we tell Christian young people before they get married and create in essence a mythical “IT”, much like Hollywood does. When the newly-wed couple eventually gets down to it we have bogged them down with so much guilt, shame, expectations and assumptions along with an idealized vision of “IT” which, let’s be honest, has little to do with the actual messy, fun, awkward, emotional, vulnerable, experience of sex-in-real-life that it’s little wonder they get so easily entangled in the complexities of it.
And I’m worried that similar discussions of sex and it’s place in marriage do essentially the same: elevate sex to being the “IT” of marriage – the purpose, the indicator of health, the thing we should be striving for (more or better of), the reason why we do the things that make our spouse feel loved etc (ooh, and that last one especially, the “I’m buying you flowers because I love you, but secretly I’m really just earning brownie points and we both know it.”)
[Brett]: Yes, exactly. You’re talking about the ‘No sex til marriage’ whip that is held above Christian young people [which becomes completely guilt-inducing every time they mess up in any way sexually] and then at some stage they get married and are instantly meant to change to a “sex is allowed and great” mentality. That is such a confusing thing we do to people and it can take years to work through that one.
Sex in marriage IS great. But you know what is also great in marriage? Cuddling. And cooking a meal together. One of my favourite things [and I think yours] is to lie next to each other at the end of the day and just talk about life and ‘solve all the world’s problems’ [well, most of them]. Also playing board and card games together. Watching a series we both enjoy. And so on. I think this is a message that could be given out a lot more on this one – that sex is great alongside a lot of other things that are great.
[Valerie]: Totally. We follow up the “no sex outside marriage” whip with the “sex in marriage” whip (that’s another story!) that creates a lot of guilt about how much is being had, shame about what is and isn’t allowable now that the general veil has been lifted, expectations about what it’s going to be like. So phrases like “if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow” just add guilt on guilt and shame on shame and resentment and disappointment and even blame at its worst. Yes, it IS wonderful. It is messy and awkward and vulnerable. It is fun. But it is also one – yep, just ONE – of a myriad things that make my relationship good and fun and healthy and fulfilling and satisfying and comfortable and secure and and and. Let’s get a little perspective in here, yo!
We would LOVE to hear your thoughts and comments on our thoughts and comments and any follow-up questions you might have…
[to read the original blog post that started this all, click here]
little did i know when i responded to someone’s comment about how much sex should take place in marriage [ironically in the comments section on a blog i posted on 'Singleness'] that this would get as much attention as it did… [third highest views of a blog page if you exclude the one i posted which was simply the lyrics from a Matt Redman song which gets visited virtually every day, with the top two relating to Singleness]
…and not just people viewing it, but people talking about it and i appreciated some of the comments so much that i felt like they deserved their own blog and so i am simply copying and pasting as is, some of the responses the ‘How much sex in marriage?’ blog received, and hope to do a follow-up post myself sometime soon as this feels like something we are interested in knowing more about…
Joel had this to say:
I like the way you tackle these difficult questions, thanks Brett. As a newly married guy I can stand behind your sentiments about having the right focus in terms of getting away from ‘me-centered’ attitudes towards sex or anything else. When I think of petty arguments my wife and I have had they are usually because one of us is being very selfish, and lets be honest selfishness is not attractive and is not going to get you anywhere sex-wise.
Leanne shared this:
I enjoyed this response. I think I might have something to add. When one partner feels they are not getting enough sex, let’s say its the man as that is more common, he tends to see himself as sexually unfulfilled, a victim, and his wife as the problem. Perhaps he even sees her as selfish or manipulative. What I think is important to remember is that both partners in a marriage should ideally be sexually fulfilled . This means the wife too. Is she not losing out just as much as her husband even if she has no interest in sex? Should her husband not have compassion on her and be aware that she too is suffering and missing out on the joy of sexual fulfilment? In this kind of situation it is important that the husband realise that he is not the only one short changed and that his wife is not the problem, at least not of her own volition and certainly not in isolation. Sensitivity is needed to understand the problem, be it biological (lack of libido, depression, discomfort etc), psychological (poor self image, upbringing etc) or relational (resentment, not feeling safe or loved etc).
I think very few women with a healthy libido in a loving marriage would withhold sex. And by that I don’t mean to say that there is no place for sex when you’re not in the mood sometimes. That’s for another conversation. I’m not saying that a woman can’t be sitting with a strong libido and deliberately withholding sex from a loving, sensitive husband, just that it’s far from the default explanation.
The problem needs to be addressed with sensitivity by both partners, seeking to understand more than to be understood, with the humility to expect that there may be another perspective to one’s own. And that the problem is likely to be far deeper and broader than it first appears. Having a fulfilling sex life, even if it’s not what you thought it would be, is something worth fighting for but do fight for your partner on this issue, not against them and be prepared to adjust your expectations and to be very patient… these things absolutely cannot be rushed and the long-term goal is key.
Richard added his thoughts:
I think the most important thing here is not to focus on the sex.. Someone once said to me that sex is a good indicator of whether or not there is a problem in the relationship. I think that if a relationship is done properly, and both people are happy, comfortable and secure in the relationship, sex will follow, however if there are issues elsewhere in the relationship, sex will illustrate that.
The question to ask yourself is, what is wrong (other than the sex) and what can I (yes you, not the other person) do better in order to meet the other person’s needs, because if they are happier in the relationship, sex will usually follow. Unless you have married someone who has never been attracted to you, at one stage you were attracted to each other, so what has changed? Find out what the real issue is, fix that, and the sex will fix itself.
Unfortunately, we are all taught from an early age to look after ourselves first. that does not work in a marriage. If you look after your spouse first, they will in turn find it easier to look after you first, and then you will truly know what it is to love someone.. Then there will be no sex-issues.. I know it is hard work, and not as simple as it comes across, but the idea is a simple one, the practice is very hard.. But well worth it!
Karen had this to add:
Hi. Thanks Brett for your thoughts, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been married for 17 years, separated for 3, not willingly, my husband says God gives him free will and he is exercising that. But that’s a whole different topic. With regards sex in marriage, I always felt that it was not the be all and end all of a marriage and that marriage was made up of so many more facets than just sex, but what I can say, in my humble opinion based on walking the journey of discovery of a broken marriage, and that is that sex life in marriage is an indicator of how healthy the marriage is, if I had known that, we could have sought counselling long before the marriage broke, instead I was accepting of my circumstances and the husband God had given me in sickness and health, for richer and poorer, etc….and therefore I did not use this as an indicator that there were serious problems. Many counsellors and leaders in churches that I know, when helping couples will ask what the sexual relationship is like to get an indication of the health of the marriage. So although it is not the be all and end all and both parties should be happy with the amount of sex that happens in the marriage, we have to make sure our marriages are healthy, that our relationship with God is healthy so that we lack nothing, that He fulfills our needs and makes us happy, so that we don’t expect our spouses to make us happy. We should have a firm and solid relationship with God and from there the fruits of the spirit will flow not only to the world out there, but definitely to our spouses. We are to communicate as soon as possible to the problems we feel exist and not ignore them for years on end. A happy and healthy person, makes a happy and healthy spouse and with God as the centre, a happy and healthy marriage with the right amount of sex for both.
Sedrico jumped in with this experienced wisdom:
Brett, being married for almost ten years now has been a roller coaster….it’s never a plain sail experience. The minute a man sits down with himself the better. He needs to admit that sex get less. Yes man, that’s the truth! Men don’t talk about it. They want to either let their buddies know that its cooking in the bedroom. Maturity in a marriage relationship is noticing the how, when and where especially when children are around. Also many couples have stressful jobs and sometimes just a cuddle, a long hug or a massage with no benefit to you is the best sensual experience your wife needs. It is frustrating for us, cause we want that physical thing. So sit down with yourself ‘young man’ study your wife and her moods and study the things she love: I know my Hazy loves Hazel nut chocolates, Monday bbm messages on her deadline day (she is a journalist) and me just being there and saying nothing on those off days. Like that song : More than words, you don’t have to say you love me cause I would already know….
Aidan had this to say:
I think that it is possible to have a good marriage without too much sex if the love is there. If a marriage is based purely on sex, it will only last as long as the sex is there. Once that ends, the marriage will probably end if there is no love. However; a marriage based on love and respect will last no matter if sex is there or not. Ideally there is both.
They say that for all newlyweds, you can mark on your bedpost the number of times you have sex in the first 2 years of marriage and in the years after that, you will probably never reach that amount in the next 50 years of marriage. This is not to say that the marriage is breaking down. It is only natural that it would drop off.
In the natural and Biblical sense, people would marry, and then soon after kids would follow. The roles would change from a courtship type of phase to a more adult and parenting phase where sex is secondary and raising and supporting a family are of primary importance. In today’s environment, we see many young couples on contraception and this interferes with the natural order of things. We are of course living in modern times and people prefer to plan nowadays. The libido is not meant to be at an all time high continually. It is cyclic.
The question we should ask is whether sex in marriage is always an indicator of a bad marriage? I do not agree that it is. Libido is primarily physical for men and more emotional for women. If it is purely emotional then the marriage probably does have a problem. If sex is based on say 50% physical then it is not necessarily a marriage problem. It may be a health problem. It may be hormonal (men and women) and a lot of other purely physical factors.
I believe that when there is not enough sex in a marriage according to one partner, then they should both seek to 1. Improve their diet (zinc, avocado, vitamins) 2. Take up physical activity 3. Actively try to work on it. If that fails then there is probably a deeper emotional problem which would be more complicated to fix. For men, there is also Viagra which could be used if there is a physical problem.
It is important to communicate and try to find the source of the problem as a couple. Both are in it together and should find a solution together.
Fred brought up this point:
Problems with sex in marriage (and this take a number of forms, eg. wanting too much, only enjoying kinky sex, having sex but not ‘being there’, or no sex at all) can sometimes be connected with abuse earlier in life, in this case it is likely that help from professionals trained in sexual counselling (such as Relate in the UK) can help and patience will be required to pull through.
Then Julie came on and asked a number of questions that were largely around what type of things are permissible in marriage such as different positions and styles and in response to her, someone identifying herself as ‘A Friend’ shared some of her story:
Dear Julie,
I understand your frustration. Sometimes, you just want somebody to give you a yes or no answer to matters that aren’t specifically laid out in scripture. I think you’ll find, though, that God is pretty clear about several things: that marriage (and sex) is meant for His glory, and that He cares deeply about you and fulfilling your life purpose (living an abundant life in Him). He also gives us the Holy Spirit to guide these questions. So, I really encourage you to seek God’s will in this area, to find out if certain aspects of sex are sinful and self-serving, or if they are pleasures for us to enjoy with our spouses. You might find that you feel distant or close to God in these areas of life- and that might be an indication of the Holy Spirit’s leading.
My husband and I are newlyweds (5 years now), so I can’t claim a lot of wisdom on this. But, I have found that the more honest we are with each other, and the more we aim for each other’s pleasure and not our own, the better. I was assaulted many years ago, before I was married, and we have learned (through trial and error and many conversations) that it helps if my husband asks before even touching me. If I dream about my attacker, he wakes me up to hold me and to tell me that it is him, my husband, and that I am safe. We also learned that sex is better in the morning, during broad daylight. We learned that for me, a couple of times a week seems like a lot, and for him, a whole week between sex seems like a long time. It also helps him to know that when I don’t feel like sex, its often because I feel unlovable, not because I am not aroused by him. I had to tell him that (he doesn’t read minds- weird huh?). Because he is privy to this information about me, he validates me without expecting sex in return, which makes me love him more. He now feels very loved and appreciated when sex happens more often than i have expressed an expectation for. These observations are unique to us. Other couples have different strategies. But, we would not know these things if we had not explicitly talked about them.
It might seem unsexy, awkward, or an extreme mood killer, but talking about your expectations for sex (preferably when you’re clothed and not in the moment) has been really helpful to us. We have both been surprised at how deeply and overwhelmingly we have felt loved by the other because of this honesty.
there are a lot of interesting and, for the most part, helpful thoughts and ideas here and so thank you to everyone who came on and commented [including a bunch of others i didn't use] – i definitely think i will have some more to share about this, but there is plenty of food for thought here already and lots of space in the comments section below to engage with the ideas that were shared here. i think one important thing to note is that each marriage is made up of two very unique individuals and so sex for them will look different and although we can find helpful principles and guidelines to make it easier or better, it is not likely that we will find a blanket ‘this is how sex works’ to cover each and every sexual relationship out there.
how about you? was there a thought or idea that particularly resonated with you? was there something said that you strongly disagreed with? something we left out?
please come and have your say.
[for some more thoughts on your thoughts by Brett Fish and the beautiful Val, click here]
[Dani is a friend that tbV and i met while working with the Simple Way and she currently lives in San Francisco, which is just across the water from us, this is a piece she wrote a year ago which was published in Sojo.net and which she offered to share with us]
When my intoxicated friend leaned in to kiss me, I didn’t think I was just the most readily available girl. No, I convinced myself that his true affections for me were coming out. But the next morning, when I realized what it actually meant, I felt less worthy of being loved than I did before.
This wasn’t the first time I lied to myself in the moment and felt awful later, but I wanted it to be the last. I told my friend that wasn’t going to happen again, but I didn’t attempt to process why it happened. Then I was asked to organize an event around the intersection of spirituality and sexuality.
As I began reflecting on my past sexual interactions with men, I tried to bring God into the conversation for the first time.
It was easier to punish myself with guilt, follow youth group-style sexual boundaries or just say, “forget it” and do whatever I desired. I was reluctant to process my sexuality. Not only would it be a lot of work and uncover a lot of past hurt, but what if it unraveled foundational faith and lifestyle beliefs?
Up until six months ago, I had never questioned my decision to not have sex until I was married. I just did what I thought I was supposed to.
Once I began to reflect on it, though, I realized I was angry that God was asking me to wait. Or maybe it was OK to have sex, and God hadn’t told me sooner! I envisioned what would happen if I didn’t wait.
I decided that I would give my current relationship six months. If we were in love, I would give in.
But no matter how I attempted to deconstruct sex outside of marriage, I still felt that this change in my standards would result in me putting an unhealthy amount of expectation on that man to marry me. I knew that I would feel all those years of waiting were cheapened. Because, for me, sex holds an intense emotional and spiritual association.
I didn’t know all this until I questioned. And now, the only way I can envision having sex with someone is in a safe and committed context. This has also led to the more recent realization that I needed to revise my sexual boundaries in dating.
I listed all the events of the past year: what I enjoyed, what made me feel used, and what I needed to allow myself to enjoy. After I processed the last year, I thought about how my desire to be loved and accepted by a man was rooted in a desire to be love and accepted by God. If I first believe that I am God’s beloved, then I would be confident in my interactions with men, knowing I’m already loved and accepted.
So I drafted another list: this one of boundaries self-confident me would ideally want and be able to stick to. A week later, I met a guy who walked me home and kissed me good night at my gate. Rather than slam the gate in his face to make sure he didn’t come upstairs, I told him I was interested in him but that I wasn’t going to invite him in. When I woke up the next morning, I felt great.
I didn’t expect that deconstructing my sexual boundaries in the name of faith would cause me to develop boundaries. But these new ones aren’t oppressive, because they come from an understanding of myself. No one else came up with them but me. Now when the temptation to get a momentary intimacy fix is there, I’ll have my own voice and story reminding me to not give in and wait for something rooted in love.
[Dani Scoville lives in San Francisco and is an active member of ReImagine, a community focused on integrating the teachings of Jesus into daily life. to read more of what Dani writes, check out her blog, 'Through the Roof Beams' here]
